Debates of Oct. 7th, 1994

Social Program Reform

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the whole point of having an open consultation process which has been opposed by the members of the Reform Party is to allow a forum in which new ideas can come about.

They say they did not do it. They have changed their minds since yesterday because five members of the Reform Party, including the leader of the party, got up yesterday and said: "Do not have consultation. Do not have open participation. Do not consult the people. Do something now". We do not believe in that philosophy. I say to the leader of the Reform Party that if he has a better way of proposing aid for students: "Put it forward. Come to the committee. Here is the chairman right here. Suggest it to the committee. That is why we have an open process".

I also say to the leader of the Reform Party: "That is called democracy".

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The social program reform proposes establishing two classes of unemployed workers: occasional UI claimants and frequent UI claimants, that is, 40 per cent of recipients, notably seasonal workers. We know that the Government of New Brunswick is particularly critical of the reform on this point.

Does the Minister of Human Resources Development realize that the UI reform he proposes will heavily penalize the economy of the regions, which is very dependent on seasonal activities like fishing, forestry and tourism?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased the hon. member asked that question, because just about 45 minutes ago I had the privilege of being with the premier of New Brunswick in a public session wherein he said very explicitly that he supports the philosophy and direction of our reform paper.

Furthermore he said that he appreciates the efforts we are making in the announcements we made last Monday in terms of a new employment enhancement program for seasonal workers, a new program of earning supplements and the experiments we are trying on UI eligibility requirements in the Atlantic provinces, particularly in Prince Edward Island, as a way of providing real support to make that transition.

If the hon. member is at all interested I invite him to sit down with us. We would be prepared to go through with him, as we have done with the premier of New Brunswick, about how we can use this important time to have a real serious examination of the interest and concerns of industries with seasonal workers. That has not really been examined in the country for a long time; we have simply let things happen.

Under this kind of review process we can seriously begin to look at the conditions and concerns of seasonal workers to make sure we build a new social security system that meets their needs.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am not surprised that Mr. McKenna was admonished by his federal big brother. Will the Minister admit, as his colleague of Intergovernmental Affairs did, that the reform he is proposing is not a miracle cure, that it will hit seasonal workers very hard, and particularly those in forestry who cannot work twelve months a year?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it is very unfortunate when members of the Bloc run out of any substantial argument that they turn to personal insult. The fact that they would have that kind of attitude toward one of the most distinguished public servants in Canada simply does not deserve a response.

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is unexpectedly for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Yesterday the minister promised that he would make available technical papers containing estimates of the costs and savings of the reform alternatives he has set out in the green book. These estimates are demanded by everyone taking the reform proposals seriously. They are absolutely essential for the upcoming budget consultations by the House finance committee.

Will the minister assure Canadians that these technical papers will contain estimates of costs and savings and give us a precise date for their publication?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can give the assurance that we will give the economic scenarios that are required. We will work as quickly as we can to have all the papers.

As the member can understand, they are quite copious and we were busy printing the report. We will make them available as soon as possible, certainly for use by members of the committee when they begin the consultations.

[Herb Grubel, Reform, Capilano—Howe Sound, BC]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately time is of the essence. Budget consultations will have to be completed in seven weeks.

Yesterday the Conference Board of Canada and a number of business economists predicted that this year's budget plan would not be met and that more spending cuts were needed to prevent a financial crisis for the country. All these experts say that cuts in social programs are needed.

Could the minister tell these financial experts and anxious Canadians that his reforms will lower social program expenditures in the next budget?

[David Walker, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have regularly told the House and the country that we will meet our targets.

During the consultation process we will welcome suggestions from the opposition and from our own members on how these targets can be met effectively for all Canadians.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Human Resources Development. On page 63 of the document he tabled yesterday, it is said that, and I quote: "It is true that replacing federal cash transfers would put upward pressure on tuition fees. This may be a necessary price to pay to put in place a permanent system for ensuring accessibility to post-secondary education".

How can the Minister pretend, as he did yesterday, that his reform will not limit accessibility to post-secondary education for thousands of young people when the proposed reduction in transfer payments will result in an increase in tuition fees? According to a Treasury Board memorandum which will not be released by the government, these fees could even double.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as we have pointed out in the House, tuition fees have doubled over the past four or five years. They have already gone up that amount under the existing system. At the same time I point out that enrolment has substantially increased in that period.

We have been providing through our student aid program, the student loan program, very successful forms of resources, but more is needed.

In the document we have said that the decision on tuition increases is not ours to make; it is up to provincial governments to make them. If the provincial governments are prepared to use the additional revenue they will be receiving through the EPF transfer of tax points to keep tuition rates down, it is their decision to make.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister also says in his document that students could use their RRSPs to repay their debts.

Is the minister really serious when he suggests that students use their RRSPs? Does he really think that students have the means to invest in RRSPs while having to borrow even more to study?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, we did not say that students could use their RRSPs. We said RRSPs could be used to help people get an education.

That means parents who presently hold RRSPs could decide to use them to help their kids with an education. We want to develop other financial vehicles by which people could begin to invest in their children's future at an early age. We want to provide investment vehicles so that parents, grandparents and other relatives can begin to put money aside with some form of incentive from the government to save for education and training, not just for income security.

I find it incredible that the Bloc Quebecois and others would somehow say it is wrong for the Government of Canada to encourage parents to invest in their children's future.

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development has claimed repeatedly that he wants to consult widely with Canadians. I think he used the c word about a dozen times yesterday in question period.

Perhaps the minister could tell the House why his department was actively promoting special interest group funding programs related to his discussion paper weeks ago, long before ordinary Canadians even knew what was in his discussion paper.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, when I announced last January that we were to undertake a process of reform I indicated we would be prepared to help groups that wanted to make presentations and consult their membership, particularly women's groups. We have provided funding at this point for 19 different organizations in the name of equity. There are organizations and groups that have substantial resources. Business organizations, labour organizations and the Reform Party have all kinds of money they get from private donations which they can use to make their case.

There are many groups, particularly anti-poverty groups, women's groups and aboriginal groups, that do not have access to the same resources. In order to ensure there was full access and full participation we wanted these groups to be able to work with their membership and do the proper research so that we could have proper dialogue and debate in the country.

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting how the minister interprets equal access by funding special interest groups. I am pleased he has admitted that is happening because I was prepared to table a letter in the House showing that it was indeed the case.

I would like the minister to tell the House again why he feels it is necessary to give special interest groups priority over individual Canadians. Where is the evidence that ordinary Canadians will have even the slightest influence on this social policy reform?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I realize the hon. member is new to the House, but it would seem to me that one of the first responsibilities of a member of Parliament is to ensure that individual Canadians in his or her constituency have their voices and points reflected.

The hon. member has a break next week. We have sent him all the information. I would encourage him to get back to his riding as fast as he can and start talking to his people.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Initial reaction to the discussion paper on social programs was unanimous in denouncing both the approach and the content of government proposals. Some critics even come from Liberals. A colleague of the minister said out loud what many secretly think when he stated that "the minister has taken a baseball bat to go after the poorest ones".

How can the minister hope to convince Canadians of the validity of his reform when he cannot even convince his own colleagues?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to read part of an article written by Mr. Alain Dubuc in La Presse , a highly respected newspaper in Quebec.

-first, we must commend the Liberal government and minister Axworthy. They are the first ones to tackle head-on the interrelated problems of economic slump and social assistance.

This article shows how independent observers, not partisan ones, support our government's efforts to develop a new approach towards poverty, unemployment and the problems of the poor in our country.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, would it not be simpler for the minister to admit that this discussion paper fully contradicts the principles which he supported when he was in opposition?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I came into elected politics over 20 years ago with a couple of basic ambitions in mind: first, to make sure that people were treated fairly throughout the country; second, to make sure that people who had disadvantages were given opportunities; and, third, to make sure that we had a strong, effective country that could maintain its independence and integrity.

Those values and purposes still exist. The green paper is reflective of how we can get those values and purposes to work better in today's world.

[Elijah Harper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

As the House knows, the social reform program is of crucial importance to the aboriginal peoples of Canada. We are the poorest of the poor. We see it as an opportunity to address the unacceptably high level of poverty among our young people. Our children face this prospect.

What assurances can the minister give to the House that the aboriginal people will be heard in this important and pressing review?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

First I can indicate to the House that I have asked my colleague, the secretary of state for training, to undertake a special process of consultation and work with First Nations people. Because of their special problems and because of the very important initiatives by my colleague, the minister of Indian affairs, to move toward self-government, there is a need for a particular track of consultation and discussion.

We have provided to this point close to $600,000 worth of support for a wide variety of aboriginal groups across the country to consult with their membership, to work with them and to begin to develop an ability to work in those very poor communities across the country to make sure there is a grassroots feeling of how they can participate.

I am very pleased to see that in the last day or two we have had major support from some of the national aboriginal organizations, like the National Metis Council, who say they too, like many other Canadians, want to co-operate and participate in finding a new and better way to help their people.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Human Resources Development spoke repeatedly about the need to co-operate with and consult with the provinces. In fact I can recall one quote where he said: "We have to really rely on wholesale co-operation by all levels of government".

He will know that since the paper has been tabled, there has been severe criticism of it by several provincial governments, including Ontario and Quebec. Yesterday his response to the premier of Ontario's concern was to take partisan and political cheap shots at the premier.

Is this an example of how he intends to gather provincial co-operation?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, we are faced with a curious and interesting piece of political acrobatics. We now have a member of the Reform Party defending Bob Rae. I am sure the folks at home in Calgary will be very pleased to know what the member has now committed to do.

The fact to remember is that we are open to co-operation, but we ask the provincial premiers, as we have, to also reciprocate and show that they are prepared to participate in the national interest.

The time has come to stop simply defending in an isolationist way their own interests province by province. It is time for Canadians to join together, as the premier of New Brunswick did this morning, and say this is something that is bigger than all of us. We must work together in a co-operative fashion. That is the kind of spirit and co-operation I would like to see from all the premiers.