House of Commons Hansard #124 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was heritage.
Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC
Mr. Speaker, the minister says he has never made such claims, but this is what he wrote in his green book.
How can the minister remain so insensitive to the current problem of students getting into debt? Indeed, by triggering a twofold increase in tuition fees, his reform will result in heavier debt loads, to the point where many will no longer dare to pursue
the goal of a post-secondary education, for fear of incurring an uncontrollable personal debt.
Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member claims that we have been insensitive to students' concerns.
I would remind him that in this year alone we have allocated over $700 million for student employment strategy which is providing spaces for thousands upon thousands of students to get work experience. We are signing agreements with business to bring new private sector investment into our colleges and universities. We have increased by 20 per cent the amount of money going for student summer employment. We have provided for a youth service corps which will provide employment post-secondary education.
We have substantially increased today's student loan program. We have doubled the loan limit. Today I announced a series of amendments to that program that would enable and allow students to get access to those funds on much easier terms.
We listen to students, respond to them and we want to have debate and dialogue. We do not urge them, as the hon. member has done, to go with barricades and protest when what we really need is a serious debate about something that concerns us all.
Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister of immigration spoke in glowing terms about the quality of his recent appointments to the immigration and refugee board.
However, some of these appointments have been high priced advocates of the employees of the immigration industry, people with a vested interest in high immigration and refugee levels and complicated administrative procedures. Coupled with a patronage based appointment system, this creates the potential for continued and systemic conflict of interest.
What if any guidelines are in place to protect the IRB process from conflict of interest on the part of IRB members?
Sergio Marchi LiberalMinister of Citizenship and Immigration
Mr. Speaker, not only does the IRB have guidelines with respect to its own board members but it also has the Immigration Act concerning which the chair of the board has recommended certain action to me and on which I will render a decision this week.
Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB
Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear that the board has guidelines.
I would like to follow this up. We are not concerned just about conflict of interest but also whether these guidelines cover influence peddling.
I have a 1992 memo written for Mr. Schelew and other members of the refugee lawyer's association by Greg James in which sitting IRB members are tracked and rated on the basis of the percentage of refugee claims they have accepted. This is the type of raw material required for influence peddling and both Mr. James and Mr. Schelew are now on the board.
What guidelines, if any, are in place to protect the IRB process from influence peddling by immigration insiders?
Sergio Marchi LiberalMinister of Citizenship and Immigration
Mr. Speaker, the Criminal Code of Canada takes care of influence peddling and if you have any information, you should put it to the right authorities.
Immigration And Refugee BoardOral Question Period
The Speaker
My colleagues, I would remind you to please address your questions and answers to the Chair.
Preston Manning Reform Calgary Southwest, AB
Mr. Speaker, the minister likes dealing in facts. Here are some facts and a question.
The first fact is the minister appointed an illegal immigrant to the IRB. The second fact is the RCMP is investigating influence peddling in immigration. The third fact is the IRB has dissolved into two warring factions based on whether they were Tory patronage appointments or Liberal patronage appointments.
Will the minister face the fact that the IRB is in an absolute mess and order a judicial inquiry into its conduct?
Sergio Marchi LiberalMinister of Citizenship and Immigration
Mr. Speaker, those are not facts. Those are rumours and innuendo. That is what you are dealing in.
Immigration And Refugee BoardOral Question Period
The Speaker
I would ask the hon. minister to please address his answer to the Chair.
Sergio Marchi Liberal York West, ON
Mr. Speaker, if the member has any information that anyone on the IRB is influence peddling, then the onus is on him to provide our relevant officials under the Criminal Code with such information.
Second, with respect to the allegations of the conduct of one individual, a process is in place. The chair has given me a report. The person in question has been asked to respond and he has.
We are weighing both sets of documents and under due process this week a decision will be rendered. Those are the facts. They are open and I am afraid to disillusion the member but we do not deal in innuendo and slurs or any other empty attacks.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Human Resources Development insists on trivializing the negative impact his social reform will have on all students in Canada.
He is cutting transfers to the provinces for post-secondary education, while suggesting an option that is likely to increase debt levels among Canadian students.
Does the minister realize that what he is offering Canadian students in his reform package is the prospect of leaving university with an average debt of $50,000 and having to make monthly payments of $600 for ten years, to pay back a debt that thanks to the minister will have increased 100 per cent?
Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member accused me of trivializing. I would say, to counter what the hon. member has said, that he has certainly been guilty of seriously misinforming people about what the facts are, more than once. In fact I would say his entire question was based on a totally false premise.
First, we are not cutting the transfers to the provinces. They are being held at the 1993-94 level of about $6.1 billion. That continues. That is not a cut. Because the hon. member is one of the great exponents in the House of provincial rights, he should know that increasingly the transfer is through tax revenues to the provinces. They make decisions about tuition. They decide what the increases will be. They decide what the curriculum will be. They decide what the universities will do.
If the hon. member has any criticism about what is happening in universities, it would seem to me he should turn around and talk to his counterparts in the provinces and ask them why they do not spend the federal transfer money, which accounts for 50 per cent of all funding for universities, effectively on behalf of higher education.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, the minister knows perfectly well that the presidents of universities and community colleges in Canada intend to double tuition fees very shortly, as a result of the minister's reform package. He cannot deny that.
No government in the past has hit students as hard as the Liberal government intends to do now. There is still time for the government to reverse its decision.
Will the minister make a commitment to the thousands of students standing in front of Parliament that he will withdraw these proposals that would doom students to poverty?
Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification
Mr. Speaker, unlike the hon. member and his colleagues who have from day one taken a totally negative attitude toward any reform at all, we are saying to the students today, as I offered their leaders in the meeting this morning and as I offered student leaders across the country when I met with them: "Let us come together and look at this problem. Let us reform the situation. Let us examine the facts. Let us get the proper things on the table".
Let us see what we can achieve by working together to improve the post-secondary education system.
The fact of the matter is that every person in the country except the hon. member in the Bloc Quebecois knows that change or reform is required.
The more we invite our students, our faculty and our administrators to become part of the process of discussion, the better the reform will be, as opposed to the position taken by the hon. member.
Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB
Mr. Speaker, last month in the House the Minister for Human Resources Development said he supports a system of broader, wider grants for students to use as a way of replacing federal transfers to provinces for post-secondary education.
Will the government adopt yet another Reform Party proposal, namely the advanced education voucher system which would transfer greater control from bureaucrats to individual students?
Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is a participant in the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development. That committee is now holding hearings across the country and receiving a wide variety of ideas.
If the member has a particular proposal on behalf of her party, certainly I would welcome looking at it as part of the report of the committee. We have an open, democratic, parliamentary process able to enlist all the good ideas and even get some of the bad ones as well.
Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB
Mr. Speaker, Reform has advocated an advanced education voucher system to shift federal transfers for post-secondary education into the hands of those most concerned about educational requirements, the students themselves. This would make educational institutions more responsive to students' needs.
Will the government consider providing Canadians with the choices that such a voucher system would provide?
Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification
Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, when we amended the student loans program last spring we brought into the formula a series of grants available for women to go to graduate programs, a remission of loans program, and the ability of students who have income needs to receive certain assistance.
What we have proposed in the green paper, I want to reiterate, are simply proposals. They are not government policy. We suggest that there could be a combination of loans and grants, in effect a voucher system for individual students that would enable them to tailor their financial requirements according to their needs without the same kinds of complication and means test that now apply to student loans. There could be much easier funding not only for students who are presently in educational institutions but for the many Canadians who are in the workplace now and want to go back to school.
If that is in some way complementary to what the Reform Party is proposing, we would certainly be glad to look at it. However I would suggest the hon. member should introduce those ideas into the committee report because the government will take the report very seriously.
Jean-Marc Jacob Bloc Charlesbourg, QC
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs unfortunately dismissed the constructive proposal made by the mayor of Saint-Jean.
According to this proposal, which is more than just a moratorium, the Collège de Saint-Jean would be allowed a period of transition, during which it would gradually be turned into a civilian institution. The mayor's proposal has the advantage of reducing the negative impact that an immediate shutdown of military training activities at the college would otherwise have, if the federal government were to proceed as planned.
How can the minister be so reluctant to be more open-minded and flexible about considering the proposal made by the mayor of Saint-Jean, a proposal that would meet the objectives of all parties while providing for a gradual transition?
Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-JeanOral Question Period
November 16th, 1994 / 2:35 p.m.
Hull—Aylmer Québec
Liberal
Marcel Massé LiberalPresident of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada
Mr. Speaker, the mayor's proposal contains some very useful clauses which I looked at a few hours ago, and I will certainly give them some thought.
However, it is wrong to say that the proposal meets the conditions set by the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada. From the financial point of view, in particular, the mayor's proposal would mean that the federal government would have to spend an additional $23 million over three years to maintain the moratorium, while at the present time we have a compromise solution reached by the Government of Quebec and the federal government, a solution that ensures the survival of the college, maintains a military presence at the college and provides for the transition from a military college to a co-ed civilian university over the next few years.
The present solution, an agreement signed by the Government of Quebec and the federal government, is a far more successful response to the conditions set by the Government of Quebec and by the federal government. Those who want to-
Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-JeanOral Question Period
The Speaker
Order. The hon. member for Charlesbourg.
Jean-Marc Jacob Bloc Charlesbourg, QC
Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to see that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs is thinking about the proposal, which means we can expect the situation to evolve.
As my supplementary, I would like to ask the minister how he and the Minister of National Defence can repeatedly maintain their excuse that closing the Collège militaire de Saint-Jean will mean a savings of $23 million, when it is public knowledge that the real savings will not be more than $10 million, and that only a few years from now, because of the reduction in the number of cadets?
Marcel Massé LiberalPresident of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada
Mr. Speaker, this is an exaggeration, to put it mildly. For months we have known that by closing the Collège de Saint-Jean, we would achieve very substantial savings, because due to military downsizing, we will no longer need as many cadets as we did before.
We now have an agreement that provides for maintaining the Collège de Saint-Jean with a military and a civilian component. We have a compromise solution. We reached a compromise and have an agreement that was signed by the Government of Quebec, under which the objectives of both parties can be met.
Those who want to break this agreement are the people who will be responsible for the college being closed.
Stephen Harper Reform Calgary West, AB
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.
Military police notes from the Shidane Arone murder investigation indicate that the order to abuse Somali prisoners came from senior officers. Now Major Barry Armstrong, a senior medical officer with the unit, has revealed that on April 18, 1993 there was a general order at Belet Huen and he was ordered to destroy evidence, specifically all pictures of Somali patients. Major Armstrong says that some of these pictures still exist.
It has now been a year and a half since these events. Would the minister agree that since there are these continued allegations of cover-up at the highest level these allegations and this evidence should be turned over to a public inquiry?