Debates of Nov. 17th, 1994

Members Of Parliament Pensions

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in March the government received a report reviewing MP pensions. At that time it indicated it would be introducing legislation to overhaul this pension scam in the immediate future. That was eight months ago, yet no action has been taken on this matter.

Could it be that perhaps there was pressure from within the Liberal caucus to wait until after next Monday, trough day, when 46 MPs will be eligible to collect pensions? Will the President of the Treasury Board give us a definite deadline for the enactment of legislation to overhaul this scandalous pension plan?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, we made it clear and the Deputy Prime Minister made it clear earlier this week that we are living up to our red book commitment with respect to MP pensions.

I do not anticipate that the hon. member who asked the question is planning on resigning. We are all here for a full term that will go on substantially more years. There is lots of time to deal with this but we will be dealing with it very soon. We will be living up to that commitment in the red book.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the best time to deal with this would have been before next Monday when these people qualify for an MP pension.

The deadline is next Monday. As of Tuesday next week the member for Halifax seems pleased that she will be eligible for $1.1 million in possible pension payouts. The Minister of Health may well receive over $1 million. In fact, Mr. Speaker, soon-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I would ask the hon. member to put her question, please.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am trying. Will the Deputy Prime Minister personally take a leadership role on this issue and use her power within cabinet with the briefing notes to change the present pension plan so that we, myself included, will keep our trotters out of the trough?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I do not need briefing notes or the hypocrisy of the Reform Party on this issue.

Remember the great announcement of the 10 per cent pay cut? I understand it is tough. They had a press conference. They gave away the keys to the limo, but the leader of the Reform Party is fighting right now to end the 10 per cent pay cut.

Could it be that the Reform Party is finally beginning to understand that the salary of a member of Parliament is $20,000 less than the salary of a secondary school principal in this community?

We have promised pension reform. We will deliver pension reform, but unlike the Reform Party we will not prop up the notion that politicians are here at the top.

I said yesterday, and I will say it again, my father spent 16 years in public life. When he left he was unable to walk; he was unable to go to the bathroom on his own; and his pension was $160 a month. I will not apologize for paying politicians what they are worth.

Review Of Canada's Foreign Policy

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Deputy Prime Minister. In their majority report on foreign policy, Liberal members and senators refer to Canada's principal trading partner as a problem. After being opposed to the free trade agreement with the United States and ultimately rallying behind NAFTA, they now wonder whether it would not be advisable to simply abolish all trade commissioner posts in the United States and Mexico.

Does the government intend to reject the Liberal majority's recommendation to abolish the posts of trade commissioners, since it knows perfectly well that this might deprive Quebec and Canadian businesses of major benefits arising from the free trade agreement with the United States and Mexico?

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the committee's report was released a few days ago. The department is now examining the recommendations contained in this report. Our response to the recommendations in this report will be made public as soon as possible.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in their report, the Liberal members and senators, as I said before, see trade relations with the United States as a problem. Would it be possible to find out from someone in this government whether they endorse this view and whether they agree that abolishing trade commissioner posts is hardly the way to help small businesses break into the U.S. market?

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I may point out that trade between Canada and the United States is worth about $280 billion in both directions. We are bound to have problems from time to time in some areas. That is not unusual. But it is incorrect to say that relations between Canada and the United States are poor, which is what the Bloc Quebecois is saying. However, when their leader was part of the government and sat on this side of the House, he supported the free trade agreement with the United States.

Fisheries

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Speaker, the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association has recently expressed great concern over proposed new fish licensing fees. I believe it has a copy of the proposal from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I would like to ask a question of the minister. Is it true that Island fishermen may go from paying tens of dollars for a fishing licence to paying tens of thousands of dollars under this new proposal? If so, how will individual costs per fisher be determined?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question. I know the leader and the members of the Reform Party are interested in this question because of their constant request of the government to find efficiencies in the way in which we deliver programs.

As part of the program review exercise, DFO is looking at cost recovery measures. I can say to the member that no decisions have been taken at this stage of the game. There will be no change in the licence fee structure for 1995, but we are asking ourselves whether it is appropriate that somebody who makes on average a $900,000 a year income from fishing certain lucrative fisheries should pay the same fee for a licence as somebody who makes $9,000.

My belief is that somebody who makes $900,000 can afford a little more than someone who makes $9,000. These fees will be quite reasonable, quite rational, and will reflect the circumstances of fishermen living everywhere in Atlantic Canada.

Justice

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, here we go again. Just yesterday a Gatineau man was found not guilty after he severely beat and threatened to kill his wife. His defence: A large intake of cocaine made him unconscious of his actions.

Will the Minister of Justice now show some backbone and some leadership and put a stop to this insanity in our justice system?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on the particular case to which the member has referred, but I will be happy to respond to his broader point. I do so as follows.

The cases in the Supreme Court of Canada in recent years, including Daviault as recently as a month ago and Bernard in 1988, identified the difficulty in dealing with intoxication from the perspective of the criminal law, primarily because intoxication, depending on the degree, goes to the ability of the accused person to form the intent which is an integral part of the offence as the law is written at present.

In each of those cases the court expressed the invitation to Parliament to consider alternative ways of expressing the law to overcome that impediment. On Saturday last the government accepted that invitation. We published a paper expressly for the purpose of examining alternatives in that regard. We are solicit-

ing during a decent period the opinions of Canadians including experts on the subject. We will reformulate as necessary the criminal law in order to ensure that people are accountable for their conduct.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, while a whole lot of lawyers make a lot of money from this defence and while this minister ponders his political options, the travesty of justice continues.

Last week the Minister of Justice wasted no time to kill any possible use of a cultural defence in criminal cases. Will the minister now act with equal speed to immediately put a stop to this insane use of drunkenness and drug induced defences?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the process of developing sections of the code that will introduce accountability while respecting constitutional rights and judicial realities is not one that can be achieved overnight.

The process of discussion which we have undertaken will last for a reasonable period and enable us to develop proposals and solutions that will last.

Human Rights

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal government has undertaken to ban discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation. The Minister of Justice himself promised to change the Canadian Human Rights Act accordingly, no later than this fall. But we are now told that 60 Liberal members are against any legislative change to ensure that sexual orientation is considered as a prohibited ground of discrimination.

My question is for the Minister of Justice. In light of the opposition generated within government ranks, does the minister still plan to table by Christmas a bill to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act so that sexual orientation is recognized as a prohibited ground of discrimination?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, our intention remains exactly the same, to introduce legislation in that regard before the Christmas break.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, considering that several government members are in disagreement, will the minister confirm that he can go ahead and table his bill, the only condition being that a free vote be held on the issue?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has made clear that this is a government commitment and that it will be proceeded with on that basis.

I should say, in response to the member's reference to dissent or discussion on the government side, that whatever goes on in the caucus of this party is a private matter for us alone. I should say as well that in this party we listen with care and respect to different points of view, but at the end of the day we decide and present legislation on behalf of the government.

Foreign Affairs

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian foreign policy review released Wednesday shockingly called for increased spending in a number of areas.

Given Canada's tough fiscal situation, will the Minister of Foreign Affairs assure Canadians he will stick to the deficit reduction program of the finance minister and not ask for increased spending in the budget?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me the occasion, in responding to his question, to thank and congratulate all members of the committee who did very good work.

As is a tradition in the House we have received the report and the dissident reports. We will, as a good government, look at them. I want to say at the outset that there are some very good recommendations and some that are not so good.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that was an interesting answer.

Since the foreign affairs review did not recommend any specific spending cuts, the Reform Party suggested cuts to bilateral aid and international grants among many other areas.

After reflecting for the past few days on our proposal, does the minister agree with these cuts and, if not, what spending cuts would he suggest?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, when I testified before the parliamentary committee, when it began its hearings, I had the opportunity to impress upon the committee members that we will have to do more with less in the future.

We will have to come up with ingenious ideas to allow Canada to continue to play its rightful role on the international scene, one that all our friends and partners expect Canada to play. There is no doubt that we will have to take into account our increasingly limited financial resources.