Debates of Nov. 2nd, 1994

Ethics

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has said over and over again in the House that his officials had consulted the ethics counsellor regarding the letter by the Minister of Canadian Heritage.

He said over and over again that the ethics counsellor's advice had affirmed his own decision to not fire this minister. The ethics counsellor has a different story. He says that he was not asked to rule on this incident.

Can the Prime Minister explain why the ethics counsellor was set up to be the fall guy for providing bad advice when his advice was not even sought?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have said everything I have to say. We talked to the ethics counsellor. I said to the House that I have consulted a lot of people in my life. I know one thing. At the end of the day, I am responsible. There is no fall guy in this. We have debated that. We went a long way. I have asked every cabinet minister to look over the files and to say whether they have written letters. It is an open process. These documents were public at any time.

If the Reform Party is so smart, why did it not go to the CRTC? These documents were public. Those members did not do their job. We had to tell them what the facts were. We were not trying to have a set up person.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister says they talked to the ethics counsellor.

Did the ethics counsellor talk to the government? The Prime Minister indicated to us that the ethics counsellor had advised him on the minister's letter and the ethics counsellor says that this is simply not the case.

This morning he said no, and that is clear. The question of course is: What part of no does the Prime Minister not understand? Will the Prime Minister accept responsibility for this contradiction in his integrity and apologize for breaching the trust of the Canadian public?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Beaver River for getting up and giving us a lesson.

Yesterday she made an accusation that was completely false. It was on national TV and she does not even get up to apologize. I do not want an apology from her because I do not need an apology from her.

Program For Older Worker Adjustment

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

On Monday, the minister stated that he had included in his discussion paper on social program reform proposals regarding older workers who are laid off. But the paper contains no concrete proposal, and does not even make reference to POWA.

How does the minister, after undertaking to make known his intentions regarding POWA, explain that no reference is made to this program in his reform? How does he explain this?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would read chapter 2 of the green book, he would recognize the entire chapter is devoted to the question of how we can take resources of the federal government, provincial governments and the private sector and redirect them toward proper training, job core development, literacy programs and community based employment through a strategy that would help older workers, young people, workers who need adjustment.

The chapter is devoted to how we basically can improve the entire system of employment development services.

It would seem to me that the hon. member should be able to read the entire chapter and come to the conclusion that it is a brand new philosophy and direction by giving a lot more local control, a lot more responsibility to the people to make decisions about how they get re-employed.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the minister rise in this House and tell us how, in concrete terms, and in what sense he intends to reform POWA in order to end the discrimination to which older workers are subject, since 75 per cent of them are excluded from the very program designed to help them?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's facts are simply not true. The fact of the matter is that in the province of Quebec we have approved, in conjunction with the provincial government, because it is a joint federal-provincial program, 65 per cent of the applications we have received. I think the expenditure represents almost 45 per cent of the entire POWA expenditure in that province alone. It has been a very important program.

I do agree with the hon. member in one area. It is an awkward program to run. I am quite prepared to talk with the provinces about how we can improve the program and how we can, as I said in my earlier statement, use many of the existing programs to consolidate into broad based employment services so we can then direct resources to those groups that need it most, and they can help make the choices to put their own signature on their re-employment efforts.

Canada Post

[Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais, Liberal, Madawaska—Victoria, NB]

Mr. Speaker, rest assured my question is not one of whining and rewhining about a letter. My question is for the minister responsible for Canada Post.

Canadians from coast to coast and I were pleased last winter when the minister stopped the closure of post offices in small communities which are vital for their social and economic development.

Could the minister tell the House what plan he has to modernize those post offices in order to provide decent, modern, written communication abilities for all Canadians?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the excellent question. It is an extraordinary question and has particular significance for rural Canada and small communities across the country.

Canada Post will be working co-operatively with a number of federal agencies and departments to see whether it can utilize existing facilities in small town Canada in order to provide better government services to Canadians, and to partner with the private sector so that we can elaborate and bring into these facilities more services in order to serve rural Canadians who are a very important element of Canadian society.

Ethics

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have clear rules on dealing with quasi-judicial bodies. We have very clear statements in the 1976 Trudeau guidelines. We have the 1984 Starr-Sharp guidelines. We have the government's conflict of interest code. We have the guidance for ministers guidelines. The guidelines from the Privy Council are very clear.

I ask the Prime Minister: Since the government has plenty of guidelines, is not the real problem a shortage of confidence and integrity from the front benches?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have a very competent cabinet.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is wonderful to see how the government side gets its exercise for the day: up and down, up and down.

The government's pursuit of improved ethical guidelines is just a red herring to divert attention from the failures of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and from the incredible lapses in the Prime Minister's office. Reform MPs will not be diverted.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Despite the shrieking Liberals, Mr. Speaker, I would like to be able to put my question.

When is the Prime Minister going to live up to all of his talk about integrity and responsibility and ask the Minister of Canadian Heritage to resign?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not want the Reform Party to change its policies and divert. It has the right policies to lose the next election so badly that we are supporting Reformers to stick to these policies. This is why we want them to stay on it.

I made the decision about this problem and I have informed the House of Commons many times. The answer is that I have not asked the minister to resign and he is still a minister.

National Defence

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Defence.

In a majority report on Canada's defence policy, Liberal and Reform Party members recommended cosmetic changes instead of a real and thorough reorganization of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Committee members from the Bloc Quebecois have dissociated themselves from this report, after the Liberals refused to reconsider Canada's participation in NATO and NORAD and in UN peacekeeping forces.

Considering that only 13 per cent of Canadian defence infrastructure is located in Quebec, while Quebecers meet approximately 25 per cent of Canadian defence expenditures, can the minister undertake to take into account this imbalance that is unfavourable to Quebec before making any cuts whatsoever?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it sounds to me as if the hon. member is reflecting upon the position taken by his defence critic in response to the committee's report and that is that the Bloc Quebecois advocates defence spending be reduced in Canada and Quebec of course as part of Canada by 25 per cent.

I do not think that is widely known. It was said in the election and it has been reiterated. That is very interesting.

With respect to the report of the hon. members, I have read it with interest. I have read the report of the defence committee. All the members of the House and Senate who took part should be congratulated.

The government will certainly consider its recommendations in the development of the new defence policy.

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given that Quebec already receives proportionately less than its fair share in terms of military equipment, can the Minister of Defence dissociate himself from the defence committee today and give this House the assurance that unacceptable decisions such as the closure of the military college in Saint-Jean will not be repeated in the case of Bagotville or Saint-Hubert?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the only comment I wish to make is that as a result of the budget cuts that we announced in February of this year defence spending in Quebec actually increased by 3 per cent. That was because of the severity of cuts elsewhere in the country.

I have said this before in the House. We will look at the committee's report. We will look at the report of the hon. member and his party and we will take all of that into consideration in the formulation of a new policy.

Ethics Counsellor

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister did not know for sure what it was but the other day he said the buck or the puck or whatever it is stops with him.

I have news for the Prime Minister. The buck stops with the Canadian people and they are fed up with governments that put political survival before integrity. The guidelines are clear. We have four different guidelines. Everyone of them makes it wrong for a minister to telephone or influence a judge or a quasi-judicial body in his control. That is clear. Yet we are not getting an answer.

[The Speaker]

I would ask my hon. colleague to please put the question.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Prime Minister promote public trust by giving the ethics counsellor full independence and have him report directly to the House of Commons?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the ethics counsellor has the mandate to report to the House of Commons once a year. He is invited to give advice to all sorts of people. Members of Parliament, ministers, everybody can consult him before doing something. These are private conversations, for example, with any member of Parliament who has a problem with conflict of interest. He is there to give advice but he does not have to report on every case. He gives advice to people. He gave advice to me.

At the end of the day I am responsible. Yes, I said the buck or the puck stops with me and I do not run away when it is coming.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the Prime Minister that he made a red book promise to give the Canadian people an independent ethics counsellor. I do not know why he is now so afraid of that independence.

Will the Prime Minister cut the political strings between his office and the office of the ethics counsellor? If not, why not? Also, how does he balance his response with his own needs and the expectations of Canadians?