Pursuant to Standing Order 45(5) (a) , I have been requested by the chief government whip and the chief opposition whip to defer the division until a later time.

Accordingly, pursuant to Standing Order 45(5)(a), the division on the question now before the House stands deferred until tomorrow at 10 a.m., at which time the bells to call in the members will be sounded for not more than 15 minutes.

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should consider the advisability of improving housing for First Nations people, and in particular First Nations elders.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to present to the House for consideration and debate a motion that I consider to be of utmost importance.

It almost goes without saying that the living conditions endured by many of Canada's first peoples are deplorable. Study after study have established mountains of facts to support the need for addressing this serious problem. Year after year the federal government has found a new reason, a new excuse not to take the action that is required. The House's own standing committee said exactly that in its December 1992 report to Parliament "A Time for Action".

I would hope that MPs from all parties here today would support this motion so that the weight of Parliament can be added to the voices from First Nations communities calling for action on housing.

Before this debate today I called around to some of the leading voices in Indian country to get an up to the minute reaction to the current state of Indian housing. Briefly, they all speak in unison: not much has changed, the federal government must act immediately.

If we look at some available statistics and read some of the recent newspaper articles we can tell that the situation is actually getting worse. The Assembly of First Nations tells us that an assessment of the on reserve housing stock in 1984 indicated that 47 per cent of the stock failed to meet basic standards of physical house conditions, 36 per cent was seriously overcrowded and 38 per cent lacked some or all the components of basic amenities by which I mean running water, indoor toilets, a bath or a shower.

By comparison, a 1991 report by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development indicated that of the 64,402 housing units on reserve 56 per cent failed to meet basic standards of physical house conditions. Of these 24 per cent require major renovation and 10 per cent require complete replacement. Thirty-one per cent have neither piped nor well water and 31 per cent in 1991 had neither piped sewage service nor septic fields.

Among the newspaper reports that I have in front of me is one that is written about a reserve in my own constituency. The headline from the October 19 issue of the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix reads: ``Waiting list long for homes on reserve''. It concerns the situation on the Mistawasis Indian reserve just 75 kilometres west of the city of Prince Albert.

After a fire left a family of eight homeless there was no replacement to be found. According to Mistawasis Chief Leona Daniels, quoted in the newspaper article, the band has 52 applications for houses from band members waiting for adequate housing. This number is not unusual says the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, the organization that represents most of the province's Indian bands. This number is not unusual because among all the reserves there is likely a shortfall of some 800 houses in Saskatchewan at this moment.

At the Red Pheasant reserve just south of Battleford, also within my constituency, Chief Mike Baptiste says there is a current shortfall of 146 units. The band has a number of young families on reserve looking for their own homes. There are a number of elders who are crowded into the homes with many children. There are many band members currently living off reserve who want their children to be raised on the reserve and attend the band administered school but they cannot because there is no housing available.

The newspapers are also full of stories concerning the situation of the Big Cove Band in New Brunswick where the council has reported that it has more than 500 people on a waiting list for housing. The band council has said that the response of the minister of Indian affairs to their problem-Indian affairs approved the construction of six new units this year, if you can believe this-is criminal.

Earlier I referred to the report of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, an all party committee that travelled extensively and heard from First Nations people throughout Canada. I urge all members and particularly government members to have a look at this important and definitive report. Despite the fact that committee members expressed a sense of sorrow and helplessness in some of what they saw and heard, they worked to write a report with recommendations "intended to provide a path to resolve the housing problems that exist for native Canadians in order that they may achieve suitable, adequate and affordable housing".

Prior to writing the recommendations the committee noted: "There is inflexibility in federal housing programs, limited economic spinoffs for aboriginal and northern communities, lack of co-ordination between governments and programs, and difficulties assessing programs".

The committee went a long way to resolving these problems. First, the committee recommended that the federal government conclude the review of aboriginal housing that has been kicking around the department of Indian affairs since 1975 and to get on with the business of addressing the problems that are all too evident.

Second, the committee recommended that the government deliver all its funding for aboriginal housing through one agency and then transfer control of housing programs along with sufficient resources to aboriginal people.

An important part of the solution is sufficient resources. To this end the committee recommended that the necessary funding be provided. It particularly singled out the special needs of seniors, the homeless, the disabled and the victims of abuse. I will have more to say about this in a moment.

The committee also stressed that aboriginal people's cultural and practical needs have not been addressed in existing programs: "The committee recommends that the Government of Canada recognize that the only way to provide the flexibility that aboriginal people need to ensure the delivery of the kind of housing best suited to their particular needs is through self-government for aboriginal people".

Every group that appeared before the standing committee urged aboriginal participation and control over housing programs.

Before I leave the work of the committee I want to bring to the attention of this House the words of just a couple of witnesses: "One of the things so very important in community life, whether in Sioux Lookout, in British Columbia, or anywhere else is housing. It is important because it has all the ingredients to make the family work". That is a quote from Mr. Eno Anderson, executive director of the Shibogama Tribal Council.

From Bob Decontie, housing co-ordinator with the Assembly of First Nations: "Many of the communities have large numbers of houses that are overcrowded close to urban centres such as Calgary. We hear stories that there are 20 people in one house. These are things that have to be addressed. We have to address issues such as if you don't have a place to study what are the chances of you going to or doing well in school".

Even Canada's Auditor General in his 1991 report criticized the federal government for its handling of Indian housing issues.

I would like to quote briefly from the Auditor General's report, 1991:

Inadequate and overcrowded housing, among other things, can contribute to societal and health problems, such as sickness, marriage breakdown, alcoholism and child abuse. The financial results can be measured in terms of higher cost of health care, social assistance benefits, policing and penitentiary services. Solving the housing problems on reserve could reduce the cost of health services and social assistance by improving social and health standards.

Again, here we are in follow-up three years later with a new Auditor General's report and still no action in this regard.

My motion today also specifically singles out the difficulties faced by Indian elders. I want to go beyond what has so far been debated on the issue, to look at the special needs faced by the growing population of elders living for the most part on reserve.

Non-Indian society has spent a great deal of time in the past 40 years developing a social security system that benefits our seniors. When it comes to aboriginal elders, we have forgotten they exist. From my own experience, I am proud of the seniors' special care homes that have been built in smaller rural communities across the prairies. When I visit nearby reserves I see nothing that compares. Indian elders who need special living arrangements or special care are often moved off reserve, away from their closely knit families and moved into the completely non-Indian environment in the nearest community with a seniors home.

On reserve where housing dollars are limited elders are frequently unable to obtain sufficient funds to upgrade their homes or move to a newer home because the money is not there to do that. In this case I would like to single out the work of the Sandy Lake or Ahtahkakoop First Nation. Indian leaders have done a fine job of developing the elders' lodge concept where Indian elders are cared for in a family and co-operative way, given independence in their day to day life and included in the

central activities of the band, including support for band government and the youth of the community.

This concept has received praise from every corner of the country but nothing has happened because there is no money and the elders are just expected to remain in their own home or on the couch in the living room of the home of their son or daughter.

The Ahtahkakoop elders' lodge was designed to meet certain needs. Let me quote from its proposal:

Currently the elders are living in relative isolation from each other and the rest of the band due to the remote nature of their homes and they are restricted in their mobility by age or disability. This isolation has resulted in incidents of mistreatment and neglect. There is no capability for native people to service the needs of their elders and infirm within their own communities. As a result the sick and the elderly are removed from their homes and family to be treated or admitted into facilities capable of providing the longer term, higher care required.

The Ahtahkakoop study and proposal was done in 1990. It has had no movement from the federal government since then. I might add that other proposals along the same lines have been developed on numerous reserves in my own constituency and across Canada, concepts that include the ability of the community to best meet the needs of the elders who are living within that community.

We have heard about the money problems in housing. If Sandy Lake or the Makwa Sahgeiehcan Band in my own riding near Loon Lake, or the Sweetgrass Band near Battleford, also involved in wanting to build and support an elders' lodge, want to do this they have to use all of the money that is allocated to the Band for housing for three or four years.

That means that the only means available to properly treat aboriginal seniors on reserve is to take away all the renovation and all the new housing money available to everyone else on the reserve, including new families, returned Bill C-31 Indians and the disabled.

I would like the federal government to do some soul searching today in its deliberations on housing programs and its response to the need for greater aboriginal control and increased financial support. I also ask the government to consider the special and immediate needs faced by Indian elders.

It would be appropriate for the federal government to establish a new program that would make special financing available specifically for the construction and operating of elder's lodges so that the elders do not continually have to compete with others on the reserve for the housing dollars that do exist. The Minister of Indian Affairs has admitted that housing will be his priority in 1991.

We have heard the minister comment in the Chamber and to the media outside the Chamber about the royal commission on aboriginal affairs. When the minister was asked if he thinks the money is being well spent on the royal commission, his response was if he had that money to spend, he would rather spend it on housing. I think that acknowledges that even the Minister of Indian Affairs recognizes the priority nature of the crisis in aboriginal housing.

This is a new Parliament and there is a new government in office. The previous House was told by its own committee that action must be taken on aboriginal housing issues. At this early date, just one year into this Parliament, I urge prompt consideration and recommend that we cannot afford to wait for a better time to act. It is indeed, as the title of the House report stresses, a time for action. Too many people are suffering as we speak.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise and speak on the motion introduced by the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake on aboriginal housing.

I begin by thanking the member for bringing this matter before the House. I can assure the House that the government and I share his concerns. I can also assure the House that we intend to address this issue as quickly as possible and in a manner that is socially and fiscally responsible to Canadians.

As the hon. member has made clear, the housing situation in many aboriginal communities has become extremely difficult in recent years. In some communities the qualify of shelter is truly appalling for a nation such as ours. In others the shortage of housing has reached crisis levels. These housing problems affect not only the elders, as was stressed in my colleague's remarks, but all sectors of the population including the rapidly growing proportion of young people.

A clear and decisive plan of action is required to correct these inequities which are contributing to many health and social problems on reserve, again as the member said.

My colleague is also correct in stating that in 1992 the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs recommended a number of very specific actions to address the shortage of adequate shelter in aboriginal communities. However, due to the dissolution of Parliament none of these actions were taken.

The election that followed the dissolution of that Parliament gave Canadians the opportunity to vote for change, for a new approach to issues that face our nation. As we all know, Canadians took advantage of that opportunity in an overwhelming manner.

I am convinced that one of the reasons Canadians elected the Liberal Party to majority government was the sincerity and progressive nature of our policies for aboriginal people. Canadians have long acknowledged that action must be taken on aboriginal issues and the Liberal Party of Canada has the political will to deal with those issues.

The Liberal plan for Canada, the red book, which outlined the Liberal Party's policy initiatives during the election campaign made some very clear commitments to aboriginal people, commitments we have been working hard to fulfil.

For example, we made the commitment to implement the inherent right to self-government, something we are now working on with aboriginal leaders and others. We will achieve this. The advantage is that it moves toward the local control for which the member was arguing. We made a commitment to dismantle the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, a process which has already begun in Manitoba.

That dismantling will leave the local control which the member knows is necessary to deal with this particular problem.

We made a commitment to uphold the honour of the crown by settling land claims through a fair and equitable process. This House has spent a great deal of time and energy over the past year dealing with enabling legislation for a number of land claim agreements. I have spoken in the House in those land claim debates. I have worked in committee on those land claim debates and I was glad to see some of them going through.

The land claims process also leads to the local control which the member knows is necessary to deal with this problem.

Also in the red book we promised to increase support for post-secondary education. Several months ago the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development announced that $20 million would be added to the budget of his department's post-secondary education program bringing the total spending for 1994-95 to over $247 million.

Improved post-secondary education will lead to expertise at the local level which is also necessary to deal with this problem.

I, like the member, have dealt with the Hiawartha First Nation and the Curve Lake First Nation on matters of self-government and education and treaty matters. I am very interested personally in his suggestions.

We also promised to address health issues by giving aboriginal communities the tools and resources necessary to tackle these problems. Toward this end the minister of health recently announced the building healthy communities strategy. This strategy will provide almost almost a quarter billion dollars in additional funding over the next five years to address priority needs in the areas of solvent abuse, mental health, and home care nursing.

The member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake knows that these matters are related to the problems which he is raising in the House today.

We also made a very clear commitment in the red book to address the housing issue which the member has raised in the House of Commons this evening. This again is something to which we have been devoting a great deal of effort.

Hon. members here must recognize that this is an extremely complex issue, one that requires a range of innovative solutions and the co-operation of many parties. It is not an issue that will be solved by money alone or, for that matter, by the federal government alone.

The red book acknowledges that: "Adequate shelter is a fundamental need of any society and a basic prerequisite for community prosperity". That statement was made in direct reference to the precarious housing situation in many aboriginal communities.

In response to the shelter challenge the red book commits the government to work with aboriginal people to develop an approach to housing that emphasizes community control, which the member has rightly stressed, local resources and flexibility in design and labour requirements, the local approach which the member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake is arguing for.

I am pleased to inform the House that the government has been doing just that. Both the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the Minister responsible for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation have made it very clear that the housing crisis is a personal priority. To fulfil the government's commitment both ministers have directed their officials to work together to develop a new aboriginal housing policy.

Toward that end in the past several months federal officials have been working with the Assembly of First Nations task force on housing along with representatives of the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, and others to develop a new policy.

Many issues need to be addressed in devising a new aboriginal housing policy, everything from ownership and financing to aboriginal involvement in construction, maintenance and management of the housing.

While aboriginal groups such as the Assembly of First Nations and the Inuit would like to see action taken quickly, they too acknowledge the need to work co-operatively with government and the private sector to develop viable solutions to this serious housing problem. The aboriginal leadership have shown determination and commitment in addressing this difficult issue.

In conclusion, while I commend the hon. member's concern and acknowledge his call for a renewed commitment to aboriginal housing, I think it is clear that the government's commitment has never been stronger.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

5:55 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I, also, would like to congratulate the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake for his excellent motion. As a fellow member of the Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, I must say that he is known for his social commitment. This motion is entirely in keeping with the social positions he has taken at the committee's hearings.

I will start by referring to the report of the Committee on Aboriginal Affairs submitted in the previous Parliament and entitled "A Time for Action, Aboriginal and Northern Housing". A few years have passed and, although things had to be done at the time, we realize that nothing has really changed and that it is still time do something. On the government side they consult, they show goodwill, but action is not forthcoming. Meanwhile, we witness life conditions which are probably among the worst in North America.

These conditions have to be seen. I belong to the category of people who believe in seeing for themselves, and I have visited a number of people from the First Nations. No later than today, I called upon my colleagues on the finance committee to fly or drive to some aboriginal communities to find out, first hand, how these people live today. I do not think I would offend anyone by saying that they live in a Third World economy.

As we can see in the Auditor General's report, tabled yesterday, aboriginal people have very high rates of poverty. In some communities, the unemployment rate is 80 per cent; the suicide rate is sometimes five times higher than the Canadian average. Despair permeates these communities; the education level is much lower than the Canadian average. They are the victims of a paternalistic attitude they have been subject to for a long time. And yes, housing is unfortunately totally inadequate.

I saw with my own eyes four generations living under the same roof. Imagine the promiscuity, the total lack of intimacy. Imagine having to eat every day with twenty people, representing four generations, around the table. These are things you do not see in the Third World; even in Latin America people are better off.

There is a lack of infrastructure and adequate housing. How many communities do not even have sewers? How many communities do not even have running water?

In a modern society, in a country like ours which boasts of a very high standard of living, tolerating Third World living conditions such as these is totally unacceptable.

On top of that, some houses are of a style totally foreign to native culture. In some communities, all the houses are the same, tiny little bungalows. There is no concern for native culture, history or tradition. Across Canada, houses built the same way and often-I will come back to that later-by people who do not even live on the reserve. You can see that the Department of Indian Affairs is not really concerned about native culture and maintaining it but rather is driven by economic factors. So, let us build the cheapest houses possible.

Financing on reserve is difficult. It is a real mess.

There is the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and then the Department of Indian Affairs. It is a mess. People do not know who to turn to. For housing construction as well as renovations, waiting lists are a mile long and, in many cases, the agencies pass the buck back and forth.

Also of note is the limited involvement of native people in policy development. My colleague opposite mentioned earlier the significant contribution of native people. Again, as I said earlier, I just left a finance committee meeting, and the First Nations' leader was telling us that he deplored the lack of consultation of First Nations on housing policy. This policy has been in the making since 1984. And let me remind you that I started my remarks by saying that it was time to act. My hon. colleague says that it is time to act, time to consult but, for all practical purposes, the First Nations' leader told us no later than this afternoon that it was not happening.

The reserves derive very little in the way of economic benefits from the various government programs. I do not want to embark on a discussion on the whole thrust and the whole gamut of government programs for native people, but the fact is that very little benefit accrues to the reserves per se from housing-related activities as well as other ones. Services are often provided by outside contractors who, on leaving the reserve, keep Natives in some degree of dependency.

I will translate almost word for word what my hon. colleague said earlier, when he quoted the 1991 report of the Auditor General. I will repeat what he said in French because we are using the same reference. In his 1991 report, the Auditor General said this: "Inadequate and overcrowded housing, among other things, can contribute to social and health problems, such as sickness, marriage breakdown, alcoholism and child abuse. The financial results can be measured in terms of

higher cost of health care, social assistance benefits, policing and penitentiary services".

May I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that the Auditor General said yesterday that all these problems are relevant to society. But they are amplified and emphasized in these communities. It is even worse. Solving the housing problems on reserves could reduce the cost of health services and social assistance by improving social and health standards. What the Auditor General said yesterday about society in general is that the problem is worse on reserves and must be solved soon.

I would also like to extract a few facts from the 1993 report of the Department of Indian Affairs. I still remember the first presentation made by officials from the Department of Indian Affairs to the Committee on Aboriginal Affairs. They told us candidly that the native population was growing by nearly 5 per cent a year, double the Canadian growth rate. They also told us that they knew that there were housing shortages, but unfortunately, funds were lacking and, as I just said, people had to live with three or four generations under one roof in some cases.

In their presentation, they told us that the First Nations had nearly 72,000 housing units, of which 42 per cent did not meet Canadian housing standards and 16 per cent lacked plumbing and sewage facilities. In our society today, not having a sewage system is almost unacceptable. Twenty-nine per cent do not have running water. Who here in this august chamber would imagine that such things could happen? Certainly not in our homes, where we have running water. But 29 per cent of homes on reserves lack running water and 26 per cent have no sewer service. I even meet band councils who tell me: "Mr. Bachand, can you intervene with the minister and try to make him aware of our cause? We have no sewers on our reserve and no running water." I have to do that quite regularly.

Subsidies have not increased since 1984, while the native population has increased 5 per cent a year, creating a big need for housing. So you understand that we now have to tell native people to continue to live with 10, 15 or 20 people under one roof, because the funding is not there and unfortunately their population is growing. So conditions continue to deteriorate and we can come right out and say that living conditions on the reserves are the worst in Canada; as I just said, it is Canada's Third World.

There are solutions. Native lending institutions can be set up, for example; things like that would help. But before that is done, of course, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation would finally have to decide with the Department of Indian Affairs who has jurisdiction, because CMHC comes under Public Works.

As I was saying earlier, this was a mess. There should be tighter management control and a single body or department should be in charge.

Mr. Speaker, I will hurry because I realize that I only have one minute left. I would have liked to say more, because these people do not often have the opportunity to make themselves heard through us and they are showing signs of distress.

We mentioned earlier, as did the leader of the First Nations, that the red book has a lot of implications and that it includes a number of commitments. However, no progress was made regarding the housing issue. In fact, the housing policy is still at the conceptual stage. There is not enough discussion with native people.

I simply ask the government to implement as quickly as possible the promises made in the red book. The time has come to take action.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

John O'Reilly Liberal Victoria—Haliburton, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to address the House on the motion introduced by the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake.

The hon. member has expressed some genuine concern about housing conditions in many First Nations communities. I know my hon. colleague's views are heartfelt and sincere. I commend him for bringing them to the attention of the House. I believe all Canadians share his concern that no group of people in our society should live in substandard housing.

I can assure the hon. member the government is fully aware that there is a serious lack of homes designed especially for seniors on reserve; as well there is a lack of nursing homes for those requiring special care. It is our belief that elders need an integrated housing program that encourages and enables them to stay in their own homes longer.

Health Canada's building healthy communities strategy which was mentioned by the hon. member for Peterborough a few minutes ago will support such a program. By supporting on reserve home nursing care for persons discharged from hospital and those with acute illnesses the strategy will help more First Nations people to continue to live in their reserve homes. The challenge now lies in ensuring that appropriate housing is available.

While I appreciate this special concern for the elderly I think the hon. member would agree that improvements must be made in aboriginal housing for the benefit of all age groups from newborn to seniors. We must keep in mind that the aboriginal population is an overwhelmingly young population. If we do not

focus as well on the needs of youth and young families we will face increasing costs to our social security, health and justice systems while failing to meet vital challenges for First Nations.

I know from conversations with the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the minister responsible for the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation that they are both very concerned about the state of housing in certain aboriginal communities. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has witnessed these conditions firsthand in many of his visits to these communities. This is an experience which has strengthened his resolve to take action.

In a recent speech to the provincial treaty forum on housing in Saskatchewan the minister acknowledged: "Housing is one of the most critical problems facing aboriginal communities today". He went on to say that the conditions he has observed simply should not occur in our country.

I am therefore pleased to confirm that the government is working very hard to finalize a new policy and action plan to tackle the First Nations housing issue. We are doing so with the support of First Nations leaders and with input from a wide range of stakeholders. This action plan will provide a multifaceted approach to addressing the housing needs of First Nations, including the special needs of elders.

The housing crisis is not a new phenomenon. The situation has been worsening year after year for the past decade as the previous governments failed to take action. Make no mistake about it. This government is committed to action on this issue.

The problems are evident enough but the difficulty lies in finding solutions that will be effective, affordable and long lasting. These solutions must also increase First Nations control of the housing portfolio and contribute to the government's objective of building new partnerships with aboriginal people.

As hon. members are aware there are serious concerns about the quality and quantity of on reserve housing. A relatively high percentage of reserve houses require some form of rehabilitation and many must be replaced. This is largely a reflection of the overall poor quality of reserve housing constructed before 1983 when the national building code standards were not enforced.

There is also a serious shortage of on reserve housing. This shortage is becoming more severe each year as more and more First Nations families are formed. This shortage means that houses are overcrowded. In turn this takes its toll on family and community life and can affect the physical and mental health and well-being of family members.

The housing shortage and the poor condition of existing houses are the two key issues that must be addressed. They call for a range of innovative and resourceful approaches.

As the hon. member for Peterborough has informed the House, officials of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation are working closely with the Assembly of First Nations task force on housing and others to develop concrete proposals for a new aboriginal housing policy.

Among the concepts now being explored are a number of creative options that have come directly from First Nations. These proposals will be considered by the government in deliberations on a new aboriginal housing policy. A memorandum to cabinet is being prepared to seek support for such a new policy. Both ministers have instructed their officials that any new housing policy must encompass three key elements.

First, it must improve housing conditions while moving greater control and accountability for housing to First Nations. The Government of Canada believes that community control is critical to the success of future aboriginal housing initiatives. This position is shared by First Nations.

Second, the policy must provide greater employment and business opportunities for aboriginal people. First Nations people must have enhanced opportunities to build better houses for less money with more local supplies. We must also explore new avenues for financing First Nations housing by encouraging private sector investment in the housing portfolio. In the current environment of fiscal restraint and deficit reduction, government alone cannot foot the enormous bill for aboriginal housing.

Third, the policy must promote the development of skills that will facilitate First Nations control of housing and enable aboriginal people to pursue jobs in the housing industry.

A housing policy that achieves all those goals will also lead to improved health and social conditions in aboriginal communities. This in turn will reduce costs to government and will provide for a more equitable society. In other words all Canadians have a stake in improved aboriginal housing.

As hon. members well know, the challenges in developing a new aboriginal housing policy are significant but they are not insurmountable. I am confident, as are the Minister for Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the minister responsible for CMHC, that the co-operative approach now under way offers the best chance for success. By working together with aboriginal people and making decisions that affect them we will arrive at solutions and approaches that can be supported by all Canadians.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:10 p.m.

Reform

Mike Scott Reform Skeena, BC

Mr. Speaker, the motion before the House today speaks to the need for more aboriginal housing. It is a real problem. Anyone who has ventured on to an Indian reserve, travelled by one, or has had the occasion to come into contact with aboriginal people knows there is a real problem as far as aboriginal housing is concerned.

As Canadians I am sure all of us would like to see the situation improved. We are not callous and uncaring. We would like to see everybody in our society living in decent housing with the opportunity to maintain what we have come to accept as the Canadian lifestyle.

These are some of the facts surrounding current government spending on aboriginal affairs. The Government of Canada is currently spending some $5.8 billion a year to try and deal with the problems we are talking about this afternoon. Out of that amount, some $300 million is directed toward aboriginal housing. According to the latest reports some 3,500 new units are built and 4,500 units are renovated every year.

The Auditor General says that the spending on DIAND's budget is rising faster than the rate of inflation and the increase in aboriginal population combined. This tells me that the positive results of this funding are dismal to say the least. It is my contention that the results will always be a failure because there will never be enough money available in this budget to address the needs of these people.

In my view the only way these people are going to be able to exist in housing that is acceptable to them and engage in a lifestyle that is acceptable to them and to us as Canadians is for them to become economically independent and be in a position to provide their own housing on the same basis as the rest of us.

While I appreciate that the Indian people find that these existing programs provide some relief, they are surely no happier with the situation than we are, the non-aboriginal people and the taxpayers of Canada.

I ask the question: How can someone feel a sense of self-worth and self-respect when he or she has to go begging to the federal government for money to subsidize housing or a standard of living?

Reserves, in many cases, are located in areas where there is little if any economic opportunity. That is the reality of reserves in Canada today. The people who live on those reserves are relegated to a lifestyle which perpetually looks to the federal government to be subsidized. In many instances these reserves are located in remote areas that are very difficult to access and where there is really no economic activity taking place other than government funding. There is virtually no meaningful employment.

The aboriginal people who have fared the best are the ones who have made the difficult but courageous choice to venture off reserves and become part of the Canadian mainstream.

It is the view of our socialist friends, and we see the evidence of that in such motions as the one before the House today, that the government either has or should have the answers to all of our woes. "If we only had a better program. If we only delivered it more efficiently. If we only earmarked more tax dollars for the program we would achieve our objectives and everybody would be happy. We would achieve a state of nirvana".

After nearly three decades of massive government spending, massive redistribution of wealth from productive people in our society to the have nots, we find that not only has the government not achieved its goals but in every instance has exacerbated the very problem that its programs were designed to correct.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Milliken Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

That is complete rubbish.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

Reform

Mike Scott Reform Skeena, BC

Those are the facts.

It is interesting to note that the Auditor General has in his latest report started to echo the sentiments of many brilliant economists, such as my colleague from Capilano-Howe Sound, who have been saying for years that government programs designated to fix problems such as unemployment and welfare by their very nature increase the demand.

I will quote the Auditor General. He says: "There are indications of possible negative effects associated with social programs". He goes on to say: "We note that most if not all social programs have the potential to produce such effects".

Many effects that have been associated with existing programs include rising social program use and high repeated use, suggest that social programs may be creating a long term dependence among some users. Disincentives to work when benefits from social programs are compared to earnings from jobs and interactions among social programs may result in the programs working at cross purposes.

It is therefore obvious that the solution to native housing, the real permanent solution, does not lie with more government spending or more programs, policies or initiatives from government, but rather must come from the aboriginal people themselves through participation in the economy like all other Canadians.

I might add that there are hundreds of thousands of non-aboriginal Canadians who live in poor and sometimes inadequate housing and who desire to move from their basement rental suites and their apartments and live in nicer housing. The reality for these people, a reality they accept, is that they will have to pursue their own dreams and aspirations using their own re-

sources. That is the way it works and that is the way it should work.

In conclusion, I want to return to the thrust of the motion which is to require the government to spend more resources and increase the aboriginal housing program. My response to that motion is that there will never be enough money. If these people are to rely on government programs, there will never be enough programs, there will never be enough general resources and there will never be general satisfaction among the recipients.

The solution is to find ways to encourage and give incentive to aboriginal people to become self-sufficient and part of the Canadian mainstream. I recognize that this is not either an easy thing to say or to accomplish but in the long run, it is the only real hope for aboriginal people living in our country today.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The Chair should apologize to the Reform Party for not recognizing members of its party earlier in the debate.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:20 p.m.

Reform

Dick Harris Reform Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to address the motion put forward by the hon. member for The Battlefords-Meadow Lake.

This is an important issue. The motion concerns on reserve housing. Having grown up in the central part of British Columbia, I have seen the evidence and I have heard the stories of the deplorable living conditions on some of the reserves.

These conditions can justifiably be called shameful in our society, certainly in the times we live in. Canada enjoys a very high standard of living, yet we have people, whether natives or not, living in abject poverty and deplorable housing situations. This is not something of which we can be proud.

The member suggests in his motion that the government should put more money into an improved housing program. The fact is that present fiscal realities simply do not permit the spending of more money to alleviate the problem.

In my opinion the money that the government is spending on native programs, particularly the housing programs and programs to help the social situation of the natives is already there. If only past governments and the present government spent a little more effectively and a little more efficiently, some of these problems could be looked after with the funds that are presently available.

Unfortunately the popular opinion by the Auditor General is that the Department of Indian Affairs is out of control in its spending. The Auditor General said that the government is throwing ever increasing amounts of money at the native people but the programs are ineffective and inefficient.

The report paints a picture of a disorganized Department of Indian Affairs lacking any direction, lacking any clear goals, lacking any monitoring of its existing spending, lacking any accountability of its existing spending. In fact the Auditor General gives the department a complete failing mark for the way it handles the funds that it has allocated to its department. It is totally out of control.

The funds are there within the department. The Department of Indian Affairs has a $5.8 billion budget. The funds are there. They are just not being utilized effectively.

When members of the Reform Party start questioning some of the things that the government does or some of the things that past governments did, members opposite immediately say that the Reform Party does not care about the plight of the Indians. We do. We feel very strongly about the plight of the Indians.

What we care about as well is the taxpayers' money that the past and present governments have spent trying to solve the problems which the Indians have, trying to come up with solutions to improve their social standards, the plight of how they live, the houses that they live in and the deplorable conditions on the reserves.

We do care about that. That is the reason we questioned the way that the department of Indian affairs of this government spends its money. It is out of control and it is not going to improve until this government gets a handle on how the bureaucracy is spending its money, until it starts making demands for accountability, monitoring, evaluation, and results.

One of the popular opinions in this country concerning the department of Indian affairs is that there is no bureaucrat in that department who ever wants to get the problem solved because if they ever solve a problem they will work themselves out of a job. We have a huge department that is overstaffed, overfunded and underproductive.

There is a considerable amount of problems among the governments with respect to the delivery of the housing services. One of the problems is that the federal, provincial and territory governments are all involved in providing housing. A recent committee report by the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs found there was a lack of focus because of these three levels of government that were involved. It was resulting in a patchwork of housing initiatives that really were not solving problems for anyone.

The committee said that there was little or no co-ordination between the three levels of government. The lack of co-ordination is not constrained to governments. It has also been found to be rampant within various departmental programs. For instance, DIAND is not directly involved in housing in the territories. Both Yukon and Northwest Territories have a cost-sharing agreement with CMHC. However, it must be noticed that 50 per

cent of the bands had to make use of CMHC because the funding provided by DIAND was not sufficient.

In order to increase the efficiency of services to bands, some suggested to the committee that the housing programs between DIAND and CMHC be amalgamated. Here we have two government departments asking to be put together to become more efficient. That is not the way the bureaucracy has worked in this country, unfortunately.

In fact, DIAND has no clear statement of federal responsibility with respect to housing for natives living on reserve. Because of this and because of the patchwork of programs among governments, the committee found that the natives living on reserves, which were side by side, could in fact have completely different levels of housing and services.

A very clear message was being delivered to the committee. There are serious problems in the administration of the housing service between various governments and between various government departments.

I conclude by restating what we in the Reform Party believe is the root problem of the deplorable housing conditions that exist on some of the reserves. It is not the fact that they need more money spent. It is not the fact that there is money to be spent because there is not. We have to borrow it on a daily basis to stay alive in this country. The fact is that the money they have, which is adequate, is simply not being used in an effective and efficient manner.

I repeat again, their programs are out of control. Their spending is our of control. There is no monitoring within that department. There is no accountability and quite frankly under this government, we see also there can be no hope for that department to ever get its act together.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Since no one wishes to take the floor, can we call it 6.30 p.m.?

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

First Nations HousingPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The hour provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired. Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1), the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

First Nations HousingAdjournment Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Len Taylor NDP The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK

Mr. Speaker, the Crow debate has been with us for some time. It is an important debate that has a great deal of meaning for thousands of prairie farmers. It is a debate that these thousands of farmers want to be a part of. In fact, these farmers have already demonstrated that when asked they are more than prepared to participate in the debate.

For example, when the previous government talked about changing the Crow benefit they hosted hundreds of regional and community meetings across the prairies. These meetings were promoted as transportation talks. They attracted hundreds of participants. In almost every case across Saskatchewan the response of those participants was to ask the federal government to maintain the Crow benefit.

Farmers across the prairies time and time again have impressed upon the federal government that the Crow represents economic fairness in the transportation of grain destined for export. Saskatchewan farmers in particular are producing grain on land that is further from port than any other grain farmers in the world. Since the price of the product is based on its port side distribution, obviously the farther one is from port the more uncompetitive the product is for sale to the rest of the world.

The Crow benefit simply recognizes that with the benefit all Canadians receive from the sale of Canadian grain into overseas markets, all Canadians will assist in the cost of getting that grain to its port of sale. Without the national subsidy, and I would argue it is an internal not an external subsidy, the revenue that would return to the prairies from the sale of grains would be much reduced. The cost of the loss of this transportation support to the prairies is therefore likely to be greater than the savings the Department of Transport and the federal government would accrue from the dismantling of the Crow benefit.

The Minister of Transport has toyed with prairie farmers about this issue for months. Last week be betrayed a long held Liberal commitment to prairie farmers and the communities that they support when he announced that it is no longer a question of whether the federal government plans to change the method of payment, it is only a question of how it will be changed.

In making the announcement the minister argues that new GATT rules and the pending world trade organization requires that Canada make the change. This is shocking. At the same time as the Canadian Minister of Agriculture is abdicating Canada's role in making economic decisions for Canadians, the newspapers are running articles quoting American politicians saying that the GATT cannot be accepted there because (a) the treaty is a threat to its economic sovereignty and (b) the new trade organization will have the power to change its national law or regulation and impose fines and sanctions if it wants to.

Here we are in Canada blindly accepting the international treaty without challenge while one of our trading partners, one I might add which is hurting us in the marketplace, is openly resisting the imposition of the terms and the agreement on them.

Canada should be challenging the interpretation of the GATT deal affecting the Crow benefit and we should be resisting making unilateral changes until all the partners to the agreement have taken steps to ensure that a fair marketplace for all exists.

It is obvious to all of us involved in the grain trade that without the Crow benefit and without specific changes to the U.S. export enhancement program, Canadian farmers are left at a significant disadvantage in the international marketplace. I argue that it is an artificial marketplace.

The federal government should stop using the GATT deal as an excuse to cut the Crow benefit. As my friend Mr. Art Macklin the president of the National Farmer's Union has said: "It is apparent that the federal government's agenda is to cut the deficit and they view the Crow benefit as a large budget item".

Mr. Macklin has also said: "If the federal government really wanted to level with the people of the prairies, it would acknowledge that there does exist ways within the framework of the GATT agreement to retain the Crow benefit as a transportation subsidy".

In conclusion, late last week I asked the Minister of Agriculture if he has failed to understand the importance of the Crow benefit to the economic viability of the prairies or has he just decided to ignore the views of thousands of farmers who have made their views known at various times during the past 10 years? For the record, I ask again.

First Nations HousingAdjournment Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

Prince Edward—Hastings Ontario

Liberal

Lyle Vanclief LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food

Mr. Speaker, this government is now examining how changes can be made to the Western Grain Transportation Act, which enable Canada to meet its international obligation and which result in the greatest possible benefits to prairie farmers and the prairie economy.

There are two compelling reasons we are talking about change. The new world trade agreement under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade calls upon countries to reduce export subsidies. Those reductions must occur both in expenditures and volumes exported. The western grain transportation subsidy on shipments to west coast ports and Churchill is considered an export subsidy under the terms of the agreement.

Legislation which will enable Canada to implement the terms of the GATT was tabled in the House recently. The uncertainty that would result in the grain industry were we not to reform the WGTA in response to the new world trade agreement would be untenable. The WGTA must be reformed before there is any threat of the volume limits on export subsidies being exceeded.

The second compelling reason for change is exactly the concern expressed in the member's question. That is the viability of the prairie economy. It has long been argued that the current method of payment discourages high value production and processing in western Canada. The world is changing. The new world trade deal has opened new opportunities for Canadian products and specifically for higher valued consumer oriented products. We must ensure that our industry is equipped to compete and gain its share of these rapidly expanding world markets.

As the government considers the best means for reforming the WGTA the fiscal circumstances of the government cannot be ignored. Agriculture will, along with other departments of government, have to bear its fair share of the effort to put our fiscal house in order.

As we consider reform the views of farmers across Canada are being taken into account. Far from ignoring the views of farmers we are asking them very specific questions on how a new payment method for the WGTA might be designed.

The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has had meetings with representatives of the major farm organizations and commodity groups from eastern and western Canada. They are being asked for their views on the two specific options that have recently come forward from the producer payment panel and from the governments of Saskatchewan and Alberta. At the same time consultations have been undertaken by the Minister of Transport on efficiency issues.

The end result will be reform for the grain transportation system that will meet our fiscal responsibilities and our international trading obligations. We also want to ensure that our Canadian farmers come out on the winning end of the issue.

First Nations HousingAdjournment Proceedings

6:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.38 p.m.)