Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I speak on the motion put forth by the Reform Party, but it is with no pleasure that I read and consider it. It
seems to me that much of this motion is contrary to the principles young people have been given for many years.
If you take a look at what is underlying this motion, because there are the words of the motion but there is a lot more to these words, to what lies under all this. Reference is made to reducing the number and dollar amounts of loans. We understand that the intent is to recover a larger part of the defaulted loans that are presently difficult to recover and that we should be shifting toward a university tax situation.
This smooths the way for what follows: to ensure that post-secondary institutions receive all the funding necessary, while the goal-as previous Reform speakers have conceded-is to reduce the cost of education to taxpayers. So, if the necessary funding is to be maintained while you reduce the cost to taxpayers, of course someone else's costs will have to go up.
Whose costs? Probably the students'. They are told: "Your costs will increase but you will be able to repay based on a fixed percentage of your income-what is commonly called university tax, or post-graduate tax, among students". We are told that this is a good idea, one that was always considered in academic circles as potentially interesting-a post-graduate tax- but not as part of a system that doubles their indebtedness.
In that sense, I fail to see the difference between the Reform motion and the social program reform proposed by the HRD minister, who is basically suggesting the same thing. He is not as direct, though. Perhaps the one thing that can be said to their credit is that the Reformers are more direct. The documents tabled by the Minister of Human Resources Development talk about cuts in cash transfer payments to the provinces-this will amount to $324 million for Quebec-as well as cuts in income tax points-over $700 million-which will have the direct effect of increasing students' indebtedness and doubling tuition fees.
I now want to come back to indebtedness from a student's perspective. I was one myself not so long ago and I have been fortunate in that I have a good job and have been able to repay my student loans. I am very proud of having been raised in a good, accessible education system. I am one of those who first saw tuition fees rise every year and those who followed me have seen them rise even more because of subtle cuts in cash transfers.
How can we hope for a competitive, highly qualified labour force ready to take up challenges, when our young people look at the labour market with little hope while we encourage them to increase their debt load for their own good? Well, that is a major problem.
Why not give them a chance to get through the system and then increase their contribution? I think this would be a better approach that will ensure greater access. Is this the new system you are proposing for something that has always been a top priority in this country? Is this the new alternative you will try to sell Quebecers when the time comes to make collective choices? Is that the system you want to give us?
Both Liberals and Reformers see eye to eye on this. The third part of the motion would ensure that post-secondary institutions in Canada receive the funding necessary. I told my colleagues: "They have the wrong level of government; they should ask their provincial legislatures". Education is not an area of federal jurisdiction; our Constitution clearly stipulates that it comes under provincial jurisdiction.
But they always find a way. Liberal and Reform members would like to campaign on improving the education system because it is a priority for people. They do not have the courage to tell them that it is in provincial jurisdiction and explain power sharing under the present system to them. This leads to a lot of confusion and debt. Let this be a warning to this government.
There is no question of letting them meddle in education. It makes no sense. They will not repeat on a large scale with education what they are doing with occupational training. We should not let them. This paragraph about ensuring that educational institutions receive the necessary funding is not the federal government's role. So far, the federal government's only role has been to provide funds for the provinces, which reinvested them as they wished, and if this government wanted to be consistent, it would let the provinces that so desire collect these funds themselves by giving them the tax points or achieving their objectives like reforming the sales tax.
Why not take the opportunity to see how the provinces could do it themselves and at the same time ensure that they have the necessary funds so that they would no longer need to constantly ask the federal government, which always wants to centralize more with a cumbersome bureaucracy that always wants to meddle and control more?
It has been a long time since the government-in fact it probably never happened-downsized its operations and made real transfers to the provinces.
Let us take a look at the situation of students. Quebecers and Canadians in general often live far from educational institutions. In order to pursue studies at the university of college level, students often have to leave their place of permanent residence. Not always, but very often. It was the case for me. Except for those enrolled in a few training programs, every university student from my region of Timiskaming or from Abitibi-Timiskaming must move to some large centre.
Obviously, we could provide more university programs in the regions and that would be a good thing, but it will always be necessary to go somewhere else to get specific training. This means that students will have to pay for rent and other expenses. There are certain related benefits in that these students develop a certain independence; they learn to become part of society and they gain a greater autonomy. However, there are related costs
which, traditionally, had been partly met by society, through loan and bursary programs.
However, for the last ten years or so, the proportion of loans and bursaries has been reversed. Greater emphasis is put on loans now, since it costs students more to pursue studies. The user pay principle is being implemented in the field of education; yet, education is really a collective good in that everyone can benefit from it.
Now the government wants to restrict that access in a very underhanded manner. Attending university can cost around $10,000 for a student from my region. Increasing, if not doubling tuition fees would translate into an additional $2,000 per year for every student enrolled in a university program. Let us not forget that, since many students must already work part-time to pay for their studies, very few manage to complete their program in the normal time frame. Many students need four years to complete the three-year program leading to a bachelor's degree. Many students take three years instead of two to get their CEGEP diploma and they even take four and a half years to get their university degree because they have to work while completing their education.
What would happen if we were to implement the proposals made by the Liberals and the Reform Party? What impact would it have on full-time versus part-time students, on the quality of education, on the quality of graduates? They do not seem to be thinking about that. They just look at the financial situation, and that is a real cause for concern.
If the debt incurred by students is supposed to double, do you think that our young people will attend university in larger numbers, especially since they often have to face a new requirement? They must have a microcomputer, which has become an almost essential tool. Of course, many universities provide microcomputers on site. Also, there are loans guaranteed by the Government of Quebec to help students afford a microcomputer, but it is another loan and this ever-growing debt becomes more and more of a burden to the system.
Students look at Canada's fiscal situation and they see that we have an enormous debt, but they also see the cuts that are being made. For example, our young people today will never benefit from the capital gains exemption that was available to previous generations. Many of the incentives and tools that Canadians used to become successful are being eliminated. Our young people are willing to accept that, but at the same time they are being told that they will have to pay more for their education.
They are being asked to do the job the government is no longer able to do with regard to the debt and we are supposed to believe that it will be better for them, that it will improve our education system.
Canadians are being deceived and the Bloc Quebecois will never support such a motion that goes against all the principles that society as a whole must contribute for the benefit of all, whether for health or education.