Debates of Feb. 21st, 1994

Aboriginal Affairs

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the Sawridge bill does not address the issue of Bill C-31, returnees now before the court.

When the Sawridge bill came before the former government, probably aided and abetted by the former minister, it was not accepted by cabinet. It was not accepted by the Department of Justice which said that it did not respect the crown's obligations to a band as a whole.

This was rejected by me, by my leader and by this government. We are looking at Bill C-31, the Cree nation as a whole when we say that the inherent right of self-government exists and we will work within that framework.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Sawridge band has put forward a practical approach to self-government, one that meets the needs of the Sawridge community.

Is the minister looking to impose a single model of aboriginal self-government on Canada's native people, or is he open to negotiating agreements on a band by band basis?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, we are looking at all the cultural aspects of self-government.

It is very serious. For instance, further north the elders pick the chiefs and sometimes when the chiefs get back to their villages they are no longer chiefs. With the Ojibways, the elders sit as advisers. With the Mohawks it is a longhouse culture. There is no one set model of self-government in this nation.

However, I will say that the Sawridge band is probably one of the richest bands in this country. It is sitting on tens of millions of dollars. That band is saying to its people that it will not share. That is not the way this government or Canadians should operate.

Federal Grants

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in La Presse this morning, Mr. Jerry Peltier was reported to have received various federal subsidies both before and after becoming Grand Chief of Kanesatake. Apparently, in 1991, Mr. Peltier received in excess of $58,000 over a period of just six months.

Could the Minister of Indian Affairs confirm these allegations to the effect that Mr. Peltier has been paid retroactively $25,600 in fees for services rendered to the government during the Oka crisis?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, if my hon. friend is going to ask that question he should ask his own leader. If the funds were paid inappropriately, they were paid during the tenure of a former government.

We have inherited this problem of overpayments. The accounting firm of Raymond, Chabot, Martin and Paré are in there addressing a problem we have inherited. It is developing a special relationship with the manager to address this problem.

If that particular leader was not there at that particular time, he was certainly there during the period the money was paid to that band. If the money was spent inappropriately the question

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by this hon. member should be why did his leader not address the problem when he was there and had the chance?

An accounting firm is addressing the problem. We are working on a management agreement. I am prepared to share the problems of the management agreement with the hon. member because we certainly do not want the problem or the overpayments to continue.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that the minister has his dates wrong, because our leader was not a minister when those events took place; he had resigned before 1990. He could not have authorized that particular payment.

Could the minister tell us in what capacity Mr. Jerry Peltier worked for the Minister of Indian Affairs before the Oka crisis?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, they can claim all they want that the leader of the Leader of the Opposition was not in office exactly at the time of the Oka crisis, but in an article from the Saturday edition of Le Soleil , the president of the police association, Mr. Jocelyn Turcotte, is reported as stating that the smuggling problem on native reserves started in 1988, when the Leader of the Opposition was a member of the Mulroney cabinet.

If we go back as we did 100 days from today, it is obvious that this government is addressing a problem that has gone unaddressed for four years by our friend the Leader of the Opposition.

[The Speaker]

I know that all hon. members will be interested in things which have gone on before. However, I would ask that we restrict ourselves as much as possible to questions and answers for which this government is responsible. To the extent that we could do that, I am sure we could get questions and answers which would be acceptable to all participants.

National Energy Board

[Roger Gallaway, Liberal, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources.

During January of this year the National Energy Board held lengthy meetings in southern Ontario as a result of an application made by Interprovincial Pipeline and Intercoastal Pipeline to extend a line from the U.S. to Canada.

Hundreds of landowners had legitimate concerns and wanted to intervene. The federal energy act has no provision for intervener funding. As a result of this line crossing the Canada-U.S. border the applicant corporations did not have to payintervener funding which amounted to millions of dollars. The farmers, school boards and other landowners were required to pay this out of their own pockets.

What will the minister do to persuade Interprovincial and Intercoastal Pipelines to pay reasonable costs of interveners? Does the minister have any plans to amend the legislation to ensure that this does not occur again?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member from Sarnia for his question. As the hon. member has pointed out, under the present National Energy Board Act there is no authorization for the National Energy Board to provide for reimbursement of expenses to interveners in these particular circumstances.

Let me say, however, that the National Energy Board is very sensitive to the cost implications of these hearings and attempts to hold hearings in affected communities, as it did in this case, to ensure that costs are minimized and that we can maximize local community participation.

Let me also say that it is not possible for me to order the two pipeline companies the member has mentioned to pay or reimburse intervener expenses as there is no legal requirement for them to do so.

In conclusion, however, let me reassure the hon. member that I am very concerned about the issue he has raised. I have instructed my department to consider all feasible reimbursement mechanisms that we might look to in the future.

Underground Economy

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue.

A growing number of Canadians are joining the underground economy and evading taxes. The chairman of the finance committee suggests that it is the fault of the GST. On the other hand, the Minister of National Revenue suggests that chartered accountants and lawyers are somehow responsible.

Is the government looking for scapegoats or does it really know why the underground economy is exploding?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. lady for her question, particularly as my wife who has two law degrees is sitting in the gallery today.

I would point out that the underground economy has many facets. We are attempting to deal with them as best we can on a number of fronts, including the smuggling we have talked about before, including increased enforcement, and including efforts to make sure the tax system is fairer.

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I point out to her that the remarks I made with respect to the specific questions she asked me concerning lawyers and chartered accountants were simply that all people who cheat, no matter what their profession, are subject to investigations by Revenue Canada and to prosecution.

I assure her a distinction that was not made in some of the CBC reports on this interview was that there is no effort made to target any particular profession; only those people within professions who cheat and who cheat their fellow citizens by failing to pay their fair share of taxes.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the Minister of National Revenue. I appreciate his lengthy response. However, I have to ask again does the revenue department have a real plan to reduce taxes in order to solve the problem of the underground economy?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, I apologize to the hon. member for the length of my reply, but the subject is a very important one involving many billions of dollars.

With respect to the supplementary question as to whether my department has a plan to reduce taxes, I can assure her we have many proposals which would make the tax system fairer. However issues as to a reduction of taxes and policies that might lead to reduction of taxes are the responsibility of the Minister of Finance who will be speaking on this very subject tomorrow afternoon.

Indian Affairs

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs. Can he tell us what Jerry Peltier's responsibilities and status in the Department of Indian Affairs were during the Oka crisis in the fall of 1990?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the question is about what was his response at that time. We were not here at that time. I believe there are two members on the other side of the House who were. If my learned friend wants to ask them that question he might do it at the recess.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, again, this is for the Minister of Indian Affairs. I would like to know what he has to hide. What is he trying to avoid? Was this government elected to carry out its duties? Does this government not have all the information in hand? Does the minister not read the newspapers, does he not prepare to answer questions? What is this minister trying to hide from us?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, no matter how much yelling and how much clapping occurs over there, in no way, shape or form will they ever explain or rationalize that their leader was sitting here doing what he was complaining about at that time.

Veterans Affairs

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

A distinguished Canadian war hero and later head of the civil aviation department died in 1990 at age 75. Six months prior to his retirement Mervyn Mathew Fleming and his wife of 29 years were divorced but shortly thereafter were reunited and remarried.

Despite 37 years of marriage, because they were technically divorced when he retired Mrs. Fleming has been denied a widow's pension. In 1992 as leader of the opposition the Prime Minister agreed that this was wrong and promised to pursue the situation with Treasury Board.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister assure us the government will now take action to see justice done?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we are well aware of the problem. As the hon. member mentioned our leader has shown great concern about it.

I have had some discussions with the President of the Treasury Board because we are trying to see if there is a legal way that we can remedy what is a very unfortunate situation.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

At age 77 Mrs. Fleming has recently been admitted to hospital with cancer. Will the hon. minister admit there is a sense of urgency to this matter?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

National Arts Centre

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

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We have been informed that the hasty departure of the National Arts Centre's director general, Mr. DesRochers, has cost taxpayers over $350,000. On January 14, the board of directors decided to spend this staggering amount to fire Mr. DesRochers before his term had expired.

Does the Deputy Prime Minister not think that this $350,000 pay-off is a shameful waste of public funds?

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is aware, Mr. DesRochers was appointed by the National Arts Centre's board of directors during the previous government's mandate, and the decision to fire him was made within the powers granted to the board of directors.

The details of his contract are confidential. As the hon. member knows, it is inappropriate to comment on an internal management decision since the National Arts Centre is, as she knows very well, an independent crown corporation.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am a little surprised to hear about the confidentiality because, although the director general is appointed by the board of directors, his salary is determined by the governor in council. So I am a little surprised about the confidentiality.

Does the Deputy Prime Minister not agree that this kind of waste could further undermine Canadians' trust in government institutions?