Debates of Feb. 8th, 1994

West Coast Ports Operations Act, 1994

[The Speaker]

I asked permission of the House. I did not see any members standing so I presumed that you had instructed me to go ahead with the second point. We can revert if there is unanimous agreement. Does the House wish to revert to second reading?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Speaker]

Agreed. Did I hear no?

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

[The Speaker]

Order. Does the House wish to revert to the second reading of the bill? Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

Agreed.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. I would like to know whether reverting to second reading means that all members who wish to speak will be able to do so or whether this is just to allow the member who so requested to make his speech, and we then go into committee of the whole.

[The Speaker]

This is to give any other members who wish to speak an opportunity to do so.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the government had made its intentions clear, there would be less confusion. If I understood correctly, consent was given for proceeding with second reading, with speeches from all sides of the House, then into committee of the whole followed by third reading, so that we would finish this evening at about 6 p.m. That was our understanding, but this does not seem to be quite clear, even on the government side. Could they decide one way or another? Then we will give our consent.

[The Speaker]

One moment please. Could the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands explain exactly what he intends to do?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I suggested to the House, and I thought we had agreed, that the motion for second reading we would propose to the House would be for second reading and referral to committee of the whole instead of to a Standing Committee of the House. That is all. There will be a debate on second reading: first the minister, then the opposition, the Reform Party, and perhaps a few other members, and after the motion for second reading is passed, the bill would be referred to a committee of the whole, according to the motion. That is all. And perhaps afterwards we can have unanimous consent for other business, but not now.

[The Speaker]

Is that clearer now?

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is another point I would like to make. We understand the procedure, but there was a motion before the House to the effect that voting on Bill C-3 would take place this evening. However the proceedings on this bill have been suspended. Would it be possible by some procedure of the House to continue the proceedings tomorrow on Bill C-3, contrary to the initial order of the House? If there had not been any changes, we would have finished this afternoon, but now, of course, that is not the case.

[The Speaker]

One moment. It would be possible if we had unanimous consent.

I will re-read the motion. Is there unanimous consent to the motion by Mr. Axworthy (Winnipeg South Centre), seconded by Mr. MacLaren, that Bill C-10 an act to provide for the maintenance of west coast ports operations be now read a second time and, by unanimous consent, referred to a committee of the whole?

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion? We are going to have debate.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect you asked if there was unanimous consent to do that and it was granted. Therefore there is no need for the motion at this point. It is just a question of allowing the debate to take place. We did not rise in our place nor did others because normally the minister rises in his place to give the first speech on second reading. That is what we were waiting for when you stood up to go into committee of the whole.

We agreed to go into second reading and then have committee of the whole. That is what unanimous consent was given to and now we wait upon the minister to justify the bill before us.

[The Speaker]

Order. Understood and so ordered then. There is unanimous agreement for having second reading. We are going to go to debate and then we are going to come back to the committee of the whole. Compris?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to introduce the West Coast Ports Operations Act. It is legislation aimed at bringing about the resumption of longshore operations in the west coast ports. I should say in introducing this bill that I feel a sense of real regret and some frustration in

having to once again intervene in the collective bargaining process.

I am certain that hon. members will comprehend why the decision is necessary once I lay out in very brief fashion the details of the dispute and the extensive efforts that went into trying to resolve it.

The dispute which gave rise to the introduction of this legislation involves the British Columbia Maritime Employers Association which represents ship owners, stevedoring firms and agents, the longshore industry on the west coast of Canada, and the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, involving some 2,300 full time workers and about 1,300 casual workers. They were covered by a collective agreement which expired December 31, 1992.

During that period we offered very extensive conciliation services to the parties and progress was made in a number of areas, but there were still some outstanding areas, particularly those relating to wage differentials and some degree of security.

The parties were advised of a decision I took on January 19 not to provide further conciliation procedure and to let the parties resume honest bargaining between themselves. I did so because the issues were not complex in nature. The two sides should have been able to achieve a complete resolution of the contract dispute. However in direct negotiations that were held on January 22 and January 26 the parties failed to resolve their differences.

Members of the longshoremen's union commenced legal strike activity at the port of Chemainus on Vancouver Island on January 27. The following day the employer indicated it would not request the union to supply labour at any of the west coast ports as of 8 a.m. on January 29. In response the union initiated strike action at other B.C. ports during the afternoon of January 28. On January 29 all longshoring operations ceased.

Indications from the parties at the time indicated that because there was not much dividing them, there could be an early resolution of the dispute. We believe there was a desire to settle this on an amicable basis.

I am fully aware, and I think all members are, of the enormous economic importance the Vancouver west coast ports carry. It is the major outlet of foreign export markets for this country. Its cessation as an active outlet has already brought a number of major impacts to the Canadian economy, in particular the grain economy of western Canada.

Some 25 grain ships are in west coast ports awaiting loading and a further 38 ships are due to arrive over the next two weeks. The major escalation in requirements to have our exports moved was one of the reasons for bringing in this legislation.

The scheduled loadings represent approximately 2.1 million tonnes of grain or close to $500 million in exports. In addition at least five container ships containing 5,000 containers have been diverted from the port of Vancouver. Other commodities such as lumber, potash, sugar and minerals have also been affected by the work stoppage and the diversion of other commodities to other ports.

The cessation of longshoring activity has had a chain reaction among many other workers. More than 170 grain handlers have been laid off, 200 rail employees and some 190 federal grain inspectors have been notified of lay-off status. Firms such as B.C. Sugar Refinery and Cominco have indicated they will be facing reduced operations or lay-offs in the very near future.

Given the impact which these early hours or days of the strike affected, we immediately appointed a mediator on February 1 to provide the parties with a further opportunity to deliver on their commitment to resolve the dispute. Mediation talks began on February 2 and carried on till the following morning. Talks resumed on the afternoon of February 3. Again, despite these extensive efforts the parties remained in a dispute on the issue of wages and the talks adjourned.

As one who strongly believes in collective bargaining, including the rights and responsibilities it places on the parties, I was reluctant to allow the two parties to abdicate their responsibilities to the Canadian public.

On February 4 I requested again that the parties return to the negotiating table with the assistance of the mediator, as well as the director general of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service.

I have told the parties involved how disappointed I was that they had been unable to reach an agreement to date. I also indicated that I expected that they do their utmost to settle their differences without further delay so that grains and other Canadian goods might again be shipped abroad.

Mediation talks resumed in Vancouver on the afternoon of February 6. Unfortunately, even though we had applied both mediation and persuasive techniques, I must again report that the British Columbia Maritime Employers Association and the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union failed to arrive at a settlement of their contract dispute.

As a result the legislation brought in today calls for immediate resumption of longshoring operations on Canada's west coast on the coming into force of the act, which I hope will be soon.

It provides for a mechanism of settlement of the remaining issues in dispute through the process of final offer selection. The

passage of the bill by hon. members will see import and export cargo moving to west coast ports and the contract dispute between the two parties referred to an arbitrator for the purposes of selecting the final offer of one of the parties on the items remaining in the dispute.

I have heard some members say we should begin to take action immediately to look at declaring grain handling and other aspects of our west coast port economy to be essential services. I resist these measures. I still believe strongly that the collective bargaining process provides the best protection of rights and obligations for both sides to end a dispute.

We have seen in this particular game that both sides played a very dangerous game of poker with very high stakes, putting in real risk not just their own livelihood but also the economic health of Canada.

The reputation of Canada as a reliable shipping partner has been put in some jeopardy and ongoing efforts by the port of Vancouver to attract new shipping lines in the face of stiff competition from U.S. ports has also been put at risk.

I would say, however, it is appropriate that we begin to look in a more broad and open way at some of the questions of industrial relations in Canada at the present time. It is important to recognize that as we try to re-gear our economy and come to grips with a number of new economic and competitive situations, the vital issue of labour relations is part of that examination. As I indicated in a speech to the House a week or so ago we have already taken actions in conjunction with the Canadian Labour Congress and others to set up a special group to look at the issue of work and its distribution.

We should begin to take a look, perhaps through House committees, at other aspects of our labour relations, to bring them into line with present day realities, especially when we look at many of the challenges facing the economy to ensure that we may provide better ways for parties in disputes to come together.

The parties involved in the west coast dispute failed to recognize the benefits of the various approaches that were offered to them and consequently have left the government with no recourse but to step in and bring about a resumption of longshoring activities. While the process of arbitration is not a new concept in resolving contract disputes, the concept of final offer selection has not previously been utilized in conjunction with federal legislation to settle strikes.

The bill before hon. members today provides the parties with seven days from the coming into force of the act to provide the minister with the name of a person who is mutually acceptable to each side to serve as an arbitrator for the final offer selection process. Failing agreements by the parties the bill provides for the minister to appoint a person who he or she considers to be an appropriate arbitrator.

The proposed legislation provides for the arbitrator, within time limits which he or she establishes, to receive from the parties a list of those issues agreed upon, a list of those matters remaining in dispute, and the final offer in respect of those issues in dispute. The list of issues agreed on and the final offer on the remaining issues are to be submitted in contractual language.

The arbitrator within 90 days of being appointed shall determine the matters on which the employers association and the union were in agreement, determine the matters which were in dispute and select a final offer of one of the parties on all of the issues in dispute. The arbitrator is required to issue an award to the parties in the form of a new collective agreement which will be binding on the parties until December 31, 1995.

The legislation provides enforcement procedures for any instance of non-compliance with the provisions contained therein. All the costs incurred by the crown relating to the appointment of the arbitrator and the carrying out his or her duties is recoverable on an equal basis from both parties.

Members may ask, why a final offer selection in this particular case? For the benefit of those members who are not familiar with the bargaining relationship, I would point out that these two parties, the BCMEA and the ILWU are no strangers to the introduction of legislation to terminate work stoppages and provide for the resolution of contract disputes. Although the last two rounds of bargaining have resulted in settlements without work stoppages, the parties have exhibited a sad record of labour relations in the past and have been subject to special legislation in Parliament on four previous occasions, 1972, 1975, 1982 and 1986.

In addition to relying on government to relieve them of their collective responsibility to settle their differences, the parties have become far too comfortable with the standard third party arbitration features of past legislation for the resolution of remaining issues in dispute.

The provision of final offer selection procedures in this legislation puts the onus back on the parties and once again requires them to make clear, economic, rational decisions on behalf of their members, their companies and the public interest at large. It does not take away the responsibility of coming to decisions themselves which so often in the past they have declined to do. They will have to make judgments about what they think is a proper settlement and what would be a proper accommodation.

To do otherwise in my opinion would curtail the responsibility and onus of each of the parties in this dispute. It would also provide a message to other parties who are now beginning to engage in collective bargaining or who have already reached strike deadlines that this government wants to have both parties

in any dispute, in any port, in any transportation system or anything under federal jurisdiction, to rely on their own best efforts to resolve their differences and come to some conclusion. We will not provide a constant crutch for them to find an easy way out of their responsibilities which under our labour relations laws they have been expected to assume.

To summarize, the BCMEA and the ILWU have shown an inability to resolve the obstacles standing in the way of settlement and the resumption of longshoring operations. The legislation will restore port operations on the west coast, get the ships and export and import cargoes moving and at the same time allow the two sides to come back and assume responsibility and arrive at a resolution.

As I indicated at the outset of my remarks, the introduction of legislation of this kind is not a pleasant task for a minister responsible for labour matters in this government. However, as the minister I have a duty to intervene when the parties fail to make the system work and in so doing inflict considerable harm on those not directly involved in the dispute.

There had been reason to hope that labour and management at the port of Vancouver had moved away from the dismal patterns of the 1970s and the first half of the 1980s when Parliament was forced to provide for resolution of their disputes on a continual basis. The negotiation of settlements in the last two rounds gave some reason to believe that the pattern had changed and that the parties were entering a new era of constructive labour relations. Sadly once again it shows that old habits die hard. Therefore, we hope the legislation will provide a strong reminder, a wake up call if you like, that we want a new regime and a new set of labour relations in this country.

My wish, and one which I am sure is shared by members of the House, is that the current difficulties do not represent a reversion to previous form. The parties will endeavour to find better ways of resolving their differences. They owe it to themselves, the competitive future of the west coast ports, and to the wider community of the country that relies on this vital gateway for world commerce.

In sending forth this legislation I want to express my appreciation to members on both sides who have given their unanimous consent that this legislation can proceed with dispatch and with the kind of urgency that many people in the economy would respect.

I recognize that there will be questions and we will certainly be prepared to entertain them once we get into committee of the whole. I would only add to my appreciation my request that members do consider strongly that once they have had the opportunity to express themselves in second reading that we move on to consideration in committee of the whole and hopefully toward third reading.

I understand that our colleagues in the other place are quite prepared to deal with the legislation this evening so it can go into effect and we can then take the final step. I do so with the strong invitation and willingness to sit down with members opposite to talk about how we might at a future date, not too far in the future but reasonably so, come to grips with how we could have a broader examination of labour relations and use their wisdom and judgment of the past on how we might proceed with a different kind of regime and proposals and policies that might help avoid situations that we now face with this legislation.

With that, I urge all hon. members to provide for prompt passage of this legislation to allow for the immediate resumption of activities in the ports.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a very sad moment when Parliament, any parliament for that matter, must legislate an end to a labour dispute. Having worked for many years in this field as a unionist and later as a teacher, I known that back to work legislation means failure, not only for the parties involved, and perhaps more so for one side than for the other, but also for the labour relations process.

I would just like to say that this dispute signals a singular failure. It is difficult to understand why with so little separating the parties, they were unable to settle their dispute within the time allowed. I realize the minister was feeling some pressure, but with all due respect, perhaps the announcement of pending legislation did not speed up the settlement process. I say perhaps it did not, since I am familiar with the labour relations environment.

May I remind you, Mr. Minister, that although this group of employers and these unions have had trouble getting going many times and have had some major disputes settled by special legislation, namely on four occasions, as you pointed out, in all fairness to the parties, I would also-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order, please. I would simply like to remind all members of the House to direct their comments to the Chair and not to speak directly to a minister or to other members.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, regarding the minister's comments to the effect that the two parties had a lengthy history of confrontation which could only be settled with legislation, in defence of the parties, one has to say that the last two agreements were reached by mutual consent. No doubt this is the reason why legislation was not introduced early on. To my understanding, all issues have been settled, except for the question of salaries. The last attempt at mediation brought the parties closer together than was reported in the newspapers

where mention was made of a gap of 25 cents. Today I believe the spread is 10 cents.

Yes, under these conditions, it is a failure. It is a failure because, as far as I could tell from a great distance, they had made efforts. I talked to the union side. Since the law was announced hastily, I did not have time to talk to management, but I understood that an effort had been made, perhaps on both sides, but at least on the union side, to change the relationship, as shown by the last two settlements which were achieved without a strike.

After this brief reminder, I would also like to say-and for me this is a major point that the minister should consider when I move an amendment-that the union several times, and even when the first strike in a port began, as far as I know, on January 27, the union always said that it was ready to help ship grain. This absolutely must be said because I think that what happens to the grain is the most important and most urgent. It is a busy period when the equipment cannot be used for storage; the system must operate in such a way that there is no loss either at the point of departure or at the port.

From the time the strike began, the union thus showed that it would ship the grain. I say that because in everything I have read, that is not said and my source is reliable; it is the same as the minister's. In keeping with the tradition of openness, he generously made it available to me. This source says that, faced with a rotating strike, the employer threatened a complete lock out, and the employer locked the workers out on January 29, thus stopping grain shipments. I think that must be taken into consideration.

Nevertheless, as we saw, the mediation which took place narrowed the gap separating the parties. For the benefit of hon. members, let me remind you that the employer added 5 cents an hour to his initial offer, taking it to 65 cents, and the union lowered its initial demand to 75 cents, which is a big effort on their part under the circumstances. That is where matters stand now.

One thing that this House must consider is that in labour relations, we must always seek to understand. It is easy when we are here, removed from what is happening in real life, not to consider the motives for which people act. If we want to move ahead as a Parliament, we must always try to consider the motives that drive people.

In British Columbia, as far as I know, there was no recession. All the figures available show that while Quebec, of which we often speak, perhaps too much for some hon. members, had a severe recession, Ontario, for which this was really the first shock, had a more severe recession in 1990 than in 1982-83, but that was not the case in British Columbia. We must therefore understand the union's demand in light of economic activity in British Columbia and not of what is happening elsewhere. I think that, in the opinion of members, it is important.

However, I understand how serious the situation is. I know how important the transport of grain and other products is for all of Western Canada. We have read in the newspapers that 26 shiploads of grain are stopped and that another 38 are expected to follow. We also know that, so far, the Canadian Wheat Board will have to pay around $6 million in docking fees due to delays. It is a serious situation from an economic standpoint and I understand the anger of those who would like to see a quick solution to the problem. It is also important for Canada, for the reliability of Canadian ports.

If I may have the floor for one minute, I would like to say that I understand very well since my constituency includes the port of Montreal and I became very angry last year when I realized that the Canadian Coast Guard did not do everything it should have to ensure that the harsh winter-but there have been worse winters-did not close the port for more than three weeks. We thought then that the Canadian Coast Guard icebreakers were taking a long time to find their way to Montreal.

Whenever a port closes, it causes a lot of anxiety because it is like the heart of economic activity in the region, so I understand very well the anger of Western producers. But I remind you that British Colombia's prosperity can help us to understand how such a conflict happened, and I would like to add that I know, without having heard it, that the workers themselves are undoubtedly extremely disappointed given the effort they put into this and that their employers are anxiously waiting for a solution to this whole situation.

Let us go back to the bill itself. I intend to propose an amendment to the final offer process. I will return to it during the debate. But I would like to tell the House right now that the final offer process may appear fair in some cases but that, in other cases, it may put one of the parties at a disadvantage, especially if the parties had not planned on this process putting an end to their conflict.

I should say that labour law is the fastest-growing kind of law because once a bill becomes law, the parties go to great lengths to ensure that it is in their best interests and one must admit that they are acting very intelligently although some are more powerful than others.

Given the circumstances, I will propose an amendment so that the arbitrator chosen by the parties or appointed by the minister responsible pursuant to the law would not have to choose between the two offers but, since the minister is entrusting him with choosing one or the other, he can also entrust him to choose in the two offers the elements that seem the most equitable to him, on the understanding that he would be limited to the two offers.

In closing, I feel sad that we need to have this debate now but I think that, under the circumstances, Parliament can only recognize failure and hope that such failures will be as few as possible, by ensuring that this legislation will guarantee the best chances of equity under the circumstances.

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, all I want to praise the government for its sensitivity on the spreading economic impact on the labour dispute involving 3,500 west coast grain handlers.

The basic orientation of the Reform Party caucus to this proposed government legislation is that we support the imposition of the government settlement one last time due to the seriousness and widespread impact of this dispute.

At the same time we would like to make a suggestion that the government form as soon as practical a special joint committee among House standing committees on agriculture, labour and transportation in order to formulate legislation leading to the long-term resolution of this reoccurring national problem. The need for a long-term solution becomes apparent when one looks at the number of times labour disputes at the Canadian ports have been ended by government legislation.

For example, in 1972 there was the resumption of operations of ports on the St. Lawrence as well as the West Coast Ports Operations Act. There was the West Coast Grain Handling Operations Act of 1974, the West Coast Ports Operations Act again the following year, the St. Lawrence ports in 1975, the port of Halifax in 1976, the west coast again in 1982, Prince Rupert in 1988 and the British Columbia Grain Handling Operations Act of 1991. It is a long, sad history.

It is obvious that the seriousness of the underlying factors affecting labour and employment in the Canadian economy must be dealt with in a better fashion. One of those underlying factors is the steady improvement of productivity per person employed in handling grain or, to phrase it another way, the steady decrease in the number of people being hired to do the job.

According to figures supplied by Gordie Westrand, president of the Canadian area of the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, in 1988 a total of 5.446 million man hours were required to move 54.591 million tonnes through the west coast ports of Vancouver, New Westminster, Victoria, Chemainus, Port Alberni, Port Simpson and Stewart.

In 1992, 4.648 million man hours moved 53.128 million tonnes in those same ports. Primary figures show 4.2 million man hours for 1993. Therefore, tonnes per man hour have increased from 10.2 in 1988 to 11.43 in 1992 and there will be an increase again in this crop year.

Basically this means that fewer people are being employed to move more grain than ever. Mr. Westrand estimates his Canadian union membership dropping by 120 to 130 every year. Once again we are talking about Canadian jobs and their disappearance altogether. As I pointed out previously to this House, employers with their backs to the wall are often faced with cutting labour, one of the few options left, faced with increasing overhead such as the recent increase in premiums for unemployment insurance paid by both employees and employers.

At the same time the number of longshoremen is decreasing, productivity of wheat and demand for that wheat among Pacific Rim customers is growing. In part "Grain Matters", a letter from the Canadian Wheat Board, reads:

The Far East and Oceania, home to 3.2 billion consumers, could account for 40 per cent of world wheat trade by the end of the century.

Population and income growth, increased urbanization and the resulting dietary shift away from rice are expected to lead to greater use of the wheat based products. Canada could secure as much as 30 per cent of this market.

We are all familiar with some of the major losses from the current dispute, losses which Canada's economy can ill afford, loss of wages for the 3,500 longshoremen and transportation employees primarily in the railroads, loss of income from grain sales for the farmers, and loss of income for all maritime employers. Perhaps the most serious loss of all may be the long-term loss of our Canadian international reputation as a reliable supplier of goods.

We must ask ourselves what happens in boardrooms around the Pacific Rim when executives see that a shipment expected from Canada was delayed for two weeks due to a labour dispute. According to figures supplied today by experts from both the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Human Resources the Japanese have already cancelled some of their barley orders for April.

The 26 ships currently in port, plus the 38 ships due to arrive this week and next if not filled with grain, cannot merely be shifted like some big steel cart. On the contrary, unfilled or seriously delayed orders profoundly damage the willingness of our customers to buy from us if they can possibly obtain adequate grain from Australia or the United States. Losing such orders would have obvious long-term ill effects on the entire economy of Canada, especially on western Canada.

It is apparent that major long term improvements are needed in labour relations in the Canadian ports, especially west coast ports which handle the majority of Canadian grain shipments for the hungry world.

In the Reform Party tradition of consulting and trusting the common sense of ordinary Canadians, we also propose that the parties in this dispute should be called as witnesses by a new special joint committee such as I mentioned before.

Expert testimony should also be sought from working groups already functioning under the chairmanship of Mr. Warren Edmondson, director general of the Mediation and Conciliation Service. Any long-term solution must include from all these sources their insights, their full co-operation and the education of all concerned to the numerous interconnected facets of our changing Canadian economy.

In conclusion, the Reform Party supports immediate passage of the government legislation together with the strong suggestion that we provide a new special joint committee of the House standing committees on agriculture, labour and transportation as an appropriate channel for obtaining a long term solution to this persistent national problem.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a regrettable day when the House has to deal with back to work legislation. It has happened before and our view today is the same as it has been in the past, that it is regrettable when the government has to take such action.

Generally there are things that the government could have done before taking this action that might have, because nothing in this life is for sure, prevented the situation from developing to the point at which the government felt it had no option.

It is particularly regrettable in this case because it has already been said to some extent there is very little that separates the parties, although what may seem like very little to us may seem like a lot to those who are involved in the intimacy of collective bargaining and it is very hard to know the full story of that bargaining. We have to accept that what is left is significant to the respective parties.

In any event, I would like to say I listened very carefully to the minister who was careful to be measured in his remarks, critical of both parties for not coming to a negotiated settlement.

I put it to him that what he has brought in today plays, at least in the perception of the union involved, to the strategy of the employer and a strategy that the employer had as far as the union is concerned for some time. If I understand the situation correctly, it was the employer who called for a final offer selection mechanism to be used before the situation went to mediation.

In effect the employer has what it wanted out of the situation, out of allowing the strike to continue and creating a situation in which the government felt it had no choice.

The government did have some choice. If the minister, as previous ministers have, feels that it is time for the government to sort of lay the law down literally and say get back to work, why is it that governments are not equally willing to lay the law down to companies and make sure they do what would be in the best interests of the situation?

I am referring here to the fact that the grain handlers were willing to continue to handle grain because grain is obviously one of the things that is a pressure point as far as the politics of this situation. There still would have been plenty to argue about and worry about. We would not have had to worry about grain if the longshoremen who offered to continue to handle grain were permitted to do so by the companies involved, but they were not.

This raises two questions. Why did the companies not allow them to do so? I think that is pretty obvious. If it was the strategy of the company in the first place to create a situation in which the government would eventually come in and provide through legislation what it had recommended earlier then that makes sense from the company point of view. However, it does not make any sense from the point of view of the government if the government was genuinely concerned about making sure that the flow of grain to port and offshore was uninterrupted.

Why could the minister not have been tough with those companies and said whatever strategy they have must be a strategy that does not include blackmailing the country with respect to the export of grain? Why could the minister not have done that? Maybe we will have a chance to ask him that when we get into committee of the whole.

It is also interesting that the minister, given that he is a Liberal from Manitoba, has brought in final offer selection as part of the package. I recall that it was the Liberal Party in Manitoba that voted against final offer selection when the NDP government of the day brought it in or, to be more precise, co-operated with the Conservative government in doing away with the final offer selection that the NDP government had brought in.

I hope this is a lesson to Mr. Edwards in Manitoba and to others that perhaps this is something that ought to be revisited by his cousins in Manitoba as something that may prove to be a useful device in labour management relations and in the settling of labour disputes.

Pursuing this theme that I started to some degree before, I want ask the question rhetorically at this point, but perhaps later on in committee of the whole in a practical way to the minister, why the onus is always on working people to serve the national interest or in this case in the interest of the country as it is represented by grain exports and all of the other exports that are tied up as a result of the strike.

Every day in the country business people and corporations make decisions that are not necessarily in the national interest. They make investment decisions. They make all kinds of decisions that are not in the national interest but which are in their self-interests. When they do that people simply say that is the way the world works. These people act in their own self-interest and that is the invisible hand of Adam Smith working its wonderful way in the world and we just have to trust that this will all work out for the best. They are just showing good business sense when they look after themselves.

When working people try to look after themselves and try to put their self-interests forward in an aggressive way that says if you do not do this we are going to withdraw our services, this is sometimes regarded by some, not necessarily the minister, in the country as a heinous act.

People are doing this all of the time. We have had capital strikes in the country from time to time when people say: "I am sorry, if I cannot make the return I expect on this particular investment I am not going to make it. If I cannot do this I am not going to do this". This happens all the time. However, when it is done by the business community it is just called good business sense. When we respond to it we are just trying to create the right business climate.

I just wanted to share the offence which I take not in anything the minister said, but in some of the comments which sometimes attend occasions like this when people comment on the actions of strikers and ask: "Why do they not do what is in the best interests of the country?" I would like to see everybody act in the best interests of the country. If that is what the minister has in mind in the coming reforms he spoke of, then I will be behind him, but we will wait and see.

With respect to the port of Vancouver, in a larger policy framework, decisions are made all the time in transportation policy particularly with deregulation, et cetera, which have caused more and more traffic to proceed on American rail lines and to proceed to American ports. All this has happened in the name of creating the right business climate for shippers, for the railways, for truckers and what not. This harms the port of Vancouver. This harms the Canadian national interest. But this is all taken like the weather: something we cannot do anything about.

Well something can be done about it. There could be a different macro policy framework in which it is ensured that people use the port of Vancouver and are not tempted in any way, or even permitted in some cases, to use the port of Seattle or any other American port when Canadian ports are waiting to provide services.

The minister mentioned he would like to see changes in how labour relations are dealt with. I am not sure exactly what he means but I have a suggestion or two. One of them is that he could bring in anti-scab legislation in the appropriate areas. We have been calling for this for a long time. It is certainly one of the things which might prevent many labour disputes and many strikes from occurring in the first place, or certainly not to occur for the length of time they often do.

Although it is not in the federal jurisdiction I think of a strike at Northern Blower in my riding. They have been on strike for almost two years now. I see these poor guys out there every day when I drive to my constituency office. If we had had legislation to prevent the use of replacement workers that strike would have been over a long time ago. These people would not still be out of work and there would not be the acrimony. There would not be the situation which occurs there now and has put a lot of people in a very difficult position.

I am sure there are many other things the minister will be considering, but I would ask him to please consider instituting at the federal level that kind of legislation and perhaps other ways of making sure there are no strikes.

There are two kinds of strikes. There is this kind of strike which gets dealt with very quickly. Then there are the other kinds of strikes like the one at Northern Blower and many other places that drag on and on and on. They are very destructive of people's lives and in many cases their relationships with former workers and colleagues.

I know the minister has a great many tasks ahead of him in terms of social programs. Perhaps he has too many. I have a great deal of respect for the minister but I do not know that anybody could do everything that is on his plate. I hope at some time the government considers that and provides him with some relief, particularly in this respect because I know the minister is going to be preoccupied with the social program review and will not be able to give his full attention to this kind of thing.

Our position is that we regret this has happened. We are opposed to it, as we have always been opposed to any imposition on the collective bargaining process. We think this could have been avoided had the government acted sooner or had the government permitted those who wanted to continue handling grain to handle it. However, we are prepared to help the government get this particular bill through and we will have more to say on the matter as the day continues.