House of Commons Hansard #46 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was cbc.

Topics

Hyundai Plant In BromontOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Ottawa South Ontario

Liberal

John Manley LiberalMinister of Industry

Mr. Speaker, obviously discussions have taken place between the Minister for International Trade and Quebec's Industry Minister, Mr. Tremblay. He did visit Hyundai and rather frank discussions took place. Clearly, Hyundai is having trouble finding a product to manufacture in Bromont. Our government and the Quebec government want to help Hyundai, if at all possible, to find some way to get the Bromont plant back in operation as soon as possible.

Hyundai Plant In BromontOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Guay Bloc Laurentides, QC

Mr. Speaker, will the Prime Minister not recognize that by making this kind of statement, his Minister for International Trade is making fun of the workers at the Bromont plant and of the region's inhabitants by hinting that there may be some hope that the plant will reopen when in fact no real guarantees have been received?

Hyundai Plant In BromontOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Saint-Maurice Québec

Liberal

Jean Chrétien LiberalPrime Minister

Mr. Speaker, the minister is trying to work out a solution even if the opposition has concluded that no solution can possibly be found. We will know soon enough. However, as long as we can look for a solution, I hope no one will blame the minister for trying to do his job well.

Bosnia-HercegovinaOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Reform

Jack Frazer Reform Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence or the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Yesterday for the first time in its 44 year history NATO forces launched an offensive air attack, in this case on ground positions of Bosnian Serbs. This follows a recent downing of Serbian aircraft violating a no fly zone over Bosnia.

Was the minister informed of these attacks before they took place and if so, did he approve of these NATO air attacks on Serbian positions?

Bosnia-HercegovinaOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Papineau—Saint-Michel Québec

Liberal

André Ouellet LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, we were informed of what took place. As you know we have military personnel who are very much involved in the operations and what has been done has been done according to UN resolutions.

Bosnia-HercegovinaOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Reform

Jack Frazer Reform Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, many Canadians are concerned that Bosnia could quickly turn into a combat situation and that restrictive orders or insufficient equipment may leave our troops overly vulnerable.

Can the minister assure the House that Canadian troops in Bosnia are adequately authorized, prepared and equipped to defend themselves if this situation deteriorates?

Bosnia-HercegovinaOral Question Period

2:50 p.m.

Papineau—Saint-Michel Québec

Liberal

André Ouellet LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, it is quite clear that our objective is to not have an escalation of the war. This is why we are pursuing vigilantly our efforts to persuade parties to take part in the peace process.

We are very much encouraged by recent initiatives taken by the Americans and the Russians that have brought some of the parties to the table. It has led to a very historic and important agreement being signed in Washington that involves the Croatians and Muslims.

Unfortunately the Bosnian Serbs have not yet agreed to be part of this peace process. We hope that they will come to the only alternative there is, which is to make peace and join in the peace effort with the others.

FisheriesOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Wells Liberal South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

There continue to be reports of Spanish and Portuguese vessels taking undersized cod outside the 200 mile limit on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks.

Will the minister tell the House what the government is doing to stop this activity?

FisheriesOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Brian Tobin LiberalMinister of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question.

We have recent reports of Spanish and Portuguese vessels taking undersized fish outside the 200 mile limit. There have been about 13 citations issued this year. Most of those citations have been issued for the catch of undersized fish on the Flemish Cap. As the member knows, this is an area where Canada does not conduct the fishery.

Nevertheless these catches of undersized fish are in violation of the conservation rules that we would apply to ourselves and in violation as well of NAFO conservation rules.

This morning I spoke to the European Fisheries Commissioner. I brought this matter to his attention and sought and received his assurance that member states of the European Union will prosecute and penalize those who engage in this kind of improper and illegal fishing activity.

Employability Development ProgramsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Daviault Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

As the federal budget creates unemployment and attacks the unemployed, all community groups were very concerned to learn that there will be no new employability development programs or EDPs in most regions. It seems there is no more money.

Can the minister confirm that the reason there is no new money for regular EDPs is because he has decided to keep a discretionary fund estimated at $40 million for Quebec alone?

Employability Development ProgramsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Winnipeg South Centre Manitoba

Liberal

Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification

Mr. Speaker, earlier in question period the hon. member's colleagues were making a strong case that we provide more assistance for young people to give them a greater opportunity to get into the job market. Clearly we must look at ways in which we can direct our expenditures to those who are most in need.

We have made no final decision on those allocations. However, I do want to assure the hon. member that we are evaluating programs very carefully to see which ones work or do not work. We will use the very scarce resources we have to target those people in the province of Quebec and throughout Canada who most directly need assistance in getting back to work.

Employability Development ProgramsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Daviault Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the minister that community groups are often front-line groups that are interested in and help people in difficulty.

How can the minister justify the fact that, with Quebec's very high unemployment rate, his only solution is to cut the EDPs and reserve the right to allocate funds as he wishes? Is he preparing for the referendum?

Employability Development ProgramsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Winnipeg South Centre Manitoba

Liberal

Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification

Mr. Speaker, in fact, there are now 50,000 more jobs in Quebec than last October. There has been a large increase in the number of jobs in the province of Quebec, and I hope that progress will be made in the future. But I must repeat that our government's priority is to assist those who are most in need, such as unemployed young people. And I hope we can count on the support of the hon. member and his colleagues in this effort.

Young OffendersOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Reform

Myron Thompson Reform Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Last week Nicholas Battersby, a young man from England, was gunned down on the streets of Ottawa by several young offenders. Canadians are sick and tired of inaction.

When is the Minister of Justice going to move beyond talk and when is he actually going to do something? When is the minister going to reform the Young Offenders Act? What is the hold-up?

Young OffendersOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Etobicoke Centre Ontario

Liberal

Allan Rock LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I want first of all to express my sympathy to the families of those who lost their lives not only in that crime but in a number of savage and senseless crimes in recent weeks.

I also wish to emphasize in response to the hon. member's question that we cannot let our anger and our grief and our concern about these dreadful events lead us to believe there is a simple or quick solution to the underlying problems of which they are tragic symptoms.

Long before the events of recent weeks this government was working intensively on a specific agenda of concrete action to deal with these issues involving specific changes to the criminal laws to make them more effective, including changes to the Young Offenders Act and the Criminal Code, and at the same time initiatives in respect to crime prevention which ultimately will be just as effective if not more so in dealing with the problems.

I assure my hon. friend that in the weeks to come he will see ample concrete steps taken by this government to deal with young offenders and crime in general in this society.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

3 p.m.

The Speaker

I wish to draw the attention of members to the presence in our gallery of His Excellency Francisque Ravony, Prime Minister of the Republic of Madagascar.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

3 p.m.

The Speaker

I also draw the attention of hon. members to the presence in the gallery of the Hon. Ghaus Bux Khan Maher, speaker of the provincial assembly of Sindh, Pakistan.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Budget Implementation Act, 1994Oral Question Period

3 p.m.

The Speaker

I am prepared to make a ruling on the point of order raised by the member for Calgary West on March 25, 1994 regarding omnibus bills.

I would like to thank the hon. member and also the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government House Leader and the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell for the contributions to the discussion.

In his presentation the hon. member for Calgary West contended that Bill C-17, an act to amend certain statutes to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 22, 1994, is an omnibus bill and as such should be ruled out of order and should not be considered by the House in its present form.

He also maintained there is no unifying principle contained in the bill, that the omnibus bill attempts to amend several different existing laws, that such a bill forces members to take one decision applicable to several different issues and finally that the variety of issues contained in the bill may cause difficulties for the committee charged to study it.

The hon. member also cited the January 26, 1971 ruling of Speaker Lamoureux as well as citation 626.1 of Beauchesne's sixth edition in supporting his argument.

Before addressing the issues raised by the hon. member, I would like to do as my predecessors have done in the past and review for the House our practices regarding omnibus bills.

For the benefit of all members, I should start by giving out the definition of an omnibus bill as found in the House of Commons' Glossary of Parliamentary Procedure . An omnibus bill is defined as: ``A bill consisting of a number of related but separate parts which seek to amend and/or repeal one or several existing Acts and/or to enact one or several new Acts.''

The hon. member is correct when he points out that Bill C-17 is an omnibus bill. However, as has been noted in numerous rulings by previous Speakers and most recently in a ruling by Speaker Fraser on April 1, 1992, procedurally there is nothing in our rules and practices which prohibits the government from introducing omnibus bills.

In his ruling Speaker Fraser, quoting the hon. member for Windsor West, the current government House leader, described omnibus bills in this way:

The essential defence of an omnibus procedure is that the bill in question, although it may seem to create or to amend many disparate statutes, in effect has one basic principle or purpose which ties together all the proposed enactments and thereby renders the bill intelligible for parliamentary purposes.

This can be found on page 9147 of the Debates for April 1, 1992.

One of the reasons omnibus bills are introduced by the government is to aid parliamentary discussion by grouping all statutory amendments for the implementation of a policy in the same bill. As Speaker Jerome noted on May 11, 1977, at page 5522 of the Debates , the use of omnibus bills was at that time a well established practice in the Canadian House. This is still the case. In fact, there are numerous examples where legislation to implement budgetary provisions have taken the form of omnibus bills.

Often confusion arises between the Chair's power to divide complicated motions and the Chair's past decisions not to divide omnibus bills. Part of the confusion is attributable to our concept of what it means to adopt a motion for second reading of a bill.

Debate at second reading relates to the principle of the bill and not to its specific clauses. The principle may be very simple or quite complex. Since there is not necessarily a unique section of a bill which defines its principle the debate is understood to be general at this stage with detailed consideration at later stages.

However, the question before the House is very simple. It is that the bill be now read a second time and referred to a committee, and not that certain sections of the bill be dealt with in a certain manner. The decision of the House, therefore, is whether to send a bill for further consideration to a committee. The question of the principle of a bill is obviously closely linked to the second reading motion.

The argument presented by the hon. member for Calgary West is: "That the subject matter of the bill is so diverse that a single vote on the content would put members in conflict with their own principles".

However, it is the view of the Chair that in the adoption of a second reading motion the House gives approval in principle to a bill and then moves on to the consideration of its specific provisions in subsequent stages.

It must also be remembered that the Chair has ruled that there is nothing procedurally objectionable to a bill containing more than one principle. Speaker Sauvé expressed this in a ruling given on June 20, 1983, and I refer hon. members to page 26538 of the Debates . She stated at that time:

-although some occupants of the Chair have expressed concern about the practice of incorporating several distinct principles in a single bill, they have consistently found that such bills are procedurally in order and properly before the House.

Bearing directly on this matter, the hon. member from Calgary West quoted Beauchesne's Sixth Edition, citation 626(1). I will read the citation for the benefit of the House. It states:

Although there is no specific set of rules or guidelines governing the content of a bill, there should be a theme of relevancy amongst the contents of a bill. They must be relevant to and subject to the umbrella which is raised by the terminology of the long title of the bill.

The hon. member has argued that the House is being asked to take one decision on a number of unrelated items. However, in the Chair's opinion a common thread does run throughout Bill C-17; namely, the government's intention to enact the provisions in the recent budget, including measures to extend the fiscal restraint measures currently in place.

In their remarks both the parliamentary secretary and the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell also pointed out that the provisions in the bill had arisen out of the budget presented by the Minister of Finance which had already been debated by the House.

As was underlined by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government House Leader and the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, the House heard the Minister of Finance make a statement on the budgetary policy of the government on February 22, 1994. The House subsequently debated the budgetary motion for several days and adopted it on a recorded division on March 23, 1994.

The title of Bill C-17 clearly refers to the original budgetary statement and the bill will simply enact certain provisions contained in that statement.

Bill C-17 is an omnibus bill but it has a common thread through it and in my view a unitary purpose.

In conclusion, it is procedurally correct and common practice for a bill to amend, repeal or enact several statutes. There are numerous rulings in which Speakers have declined to intervene simply because a bill was complex and permitted omnibus legislation to proceed.

Hence, while I cannot accept the hon. member's request to divide or set aside Bill C-17, I can suggest to him and to other members that should they so wish they may propose amendments to the bill in committee or at report stage and in so doing have an opportunity to express their views and vote on the specific sections of the bill.

I thank all hon. members for their contributions.

Canadian Security And Intelligence ServiceRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Windsor West Ontario

Liberal

Herb Gray LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I am rising to table in this House the 1993 public report of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. This is the third such report and I am tabling these documents in both official languages.

Criminal CodeRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Etobicoke Centre Ontario

Liberal

Allan Rock LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), I have the honour to place before the House a brief document in both official languages regarding the need for a Criminal Code amendment specifically prohibiting female genital mutilation.

Order In Council AppointmentsRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order in council appointments which were made by the government.

Pursuant to Standing Order 110(1), these are deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list of which is attached to the documentation.

Government Response To PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

April 11th, 1994 / 3:10 p.m.

Kingston and the Islands Ontario

Liberal

Peter Milliken LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to 22 petitions.

National SecurityRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Windsor West Ontario

Liberal

Herb Gray LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, having just tabled the third public report of the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, I am now pleased to rise as Solicitor General to deliver the annual national security statement.

Taken together, this statement and the public report are intended to provide Canadians with an assessment of the current security intelligence environment and information about the government's efforts to ensure our national security.

It is my pleasure to continue this practice because I believe it is essential in a democratic society that Parliament and citizens have this information and that elected representatives are heard on the crucial issues of security intelligence, security enforcement and protective security.

Ten years ago with the passage of the CSIS Act and the Security Offences Act in 1984 a previous Liberal administration laid the foundation for a new national security system.

The goal was to create an effective national security system within which there would be a carefully controlled civilian security intelligence agency. This agency would work closely and effectively with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as well as with other government agencies such as Transport Canada, Foreign Affairs, National Defence and Citizenship and Immigration.

The Service's first years of operation were marked by intense scrutiny of how it went about its business. Concerns about the Service's operational focus led to the creation in 1987 of an independent advisory team to advise the government on how to realign the Service's operational priorities and strengthen its management.

On the advice of the team the government disbanded the counter-subversion branch of CSIS and the Service's use of intrusive investigative techniques was circumscribed to ensure that Canadians engaged in legitimate dissent were not caught up in the security intelligence net.

The CSIS Act's provision for an external Security Intelligence Review Committee, the SIRC, reporting directly to Parliament and the Office of the Inspector General reporting internally to the Minister, were key innovations in Canadian security intelligence.

SIRC with its annual reports to Parliament and the Office of the Inspector General with its annual certificates to the minister played an essential role in helping successive solicitors general exercise their control and accountability for CSIS. Five years after the legislation came into force, a special parliamentary committee examined the operation of the CSIS and security offences acts.

In 1991 in "On Course", the then government's response to the committee's report, the then government committed itself to making an annual statement to Parliament on national security and the tabling of a public report from the director of CSIS. Our system of review and control with its built in checks and balances involving the executive, the judicial and legislative components of government are working well.

In effect, the service has been under constant review and adjustment since inception and this should be reassuring to all Canadians. Indeed in its annual report for 1992-93 which I tabled in this House soon after becoming Solicitor General, SIRC concluded that CSIS "is working within the law and operating effectively".

Today we see a service faced with constant and at times dramatic change in the global security environment. Most notably, I speak of the collapse of the Soviet Union and of the classic cold war model of east versus west that was the overriding preoccupation of the national security system.

Members might well ask whether we are reorienting and streamlining our activities in step with today's security intelligence environment. Yes, we certainly are. Two years ago my predecessor asked the CSIS director to prepare for him an assessment of how the evolving security environment might affect the services mandate over time.

The director was also asked to consider how the service should be structured as a consequence and to determine the resource implications of his recommendations. In his report last year the director concluded that although the bipolar tensions of the cold war, which were terrifying but at the same time reassuring because they were known, had largely dissipated, a multiplicity of new threats and tensions has emerged.

The collapse of the Warsaw pact has been a major factor in allowing the government to judiciously prune the services resources. The services position complement has dropped from a peak of 2,760 in 1992 to 2,366 today, a reduction of 394 positions.

As the spending estimates for the fiscal year 1994-95 show, the CSIS budget is $206.8 million, down from $228.7 million last year. In terms of reorientation, the director's review confirmed the course of continuing to reduce the proportion of resources specifically dedicated to counter-intelligence while increasing resources directed to counter-terrorism.

Allow me also to note what the SIRC said on this issue in its annual report and again I quote: "We believe that CSIS is reorienting its activities in a sensible prudent fashion and the result will be a service that acts effectively against the modern terrorist threat to vulnerable highly interdependent post-industrial societies such as their own and which cost the nation less".

Our approach must continue to be prudent and steady. Mr. Speaker.

We have to be deliberate and measured in any change in the apportioning of our security intelligence resources and tough and adaptable in how we target them.

I say this because while the Cold War may well be over, the global situation does not warrant complacency.

Witness the conclusions of the Director in the public report: The member of foreign intelligence services operating against Canadian interests in Canada or abroad remains substantial.

The activities of former Cold War adversaries have generally been reduced, he notes, but they have by no means been eliminated. The recent arrest of a senior employee of the CIA for allegedly selling his country's secrets seems to bear this out.

The primary threat to Canada is international terrorism and the bulk of CSIS operational resources is dedicated to counter terrorism.

The conspiracy to bomb a Hindu temple in Toronto, the bombing of the World Trade Centre in New York, and the recent terrorist attack against Heathrow Airport in the United Kingdom bring home the point dramatically that open democratic societies offer vulnerable and attractive targets. Members should also know that terrorists are known to plan and raise funds for their operations elsewhere.

The conclusion of the CSIS threat assessment is both sobering and instructive. Terrorists will continue to avail themselves of the latest technology and to feed on the discontent of extremism both from the right and the left.

As the number of flash points grows around the world so do the potential number of threats. For this reason it is incumbent upon us to ensure CSIS has the ability to investigate and analyse threats and to advise the government so that it can take appropriate action.

To counter terrorism CSIS works with other government departments and agencies to deny entry into Canada of known and suspected terrorists. It also maintains liaison with foreign intelligence services and here at home with various communities and groups to identify emerging threats.

In this regard I would like to note that this government is concerned that recent arrivals to Canada not be victimized or manipulated by homeland governments or extremist groups. These recent arrivals have come to a new land to escape such conflict.

The disintegration of the Soviet Union has lifted the lid on a cauldron of ethnic nationalism. Disruption is rife and the waves caused are already lapping at our shores. The disruption of governments in some countries is making the work at CSIS and its allied counterparts around the world ever more difficult.

A mixture of ethnic, religious, ideological, economic and territorial pressures has increased instability in many regions around the world. The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, especially nuclear weapons, continues to be worrisome. The increased availability of nuclear technology and the aspirations of some countries to acquire nuclear bomb-making capability are profoundly disturbing.

And as the nature of power changes, many countries are turning their intelligence services to the business of economic espionage, primarily in the developed Western world.

The Director underlines the Service's concern for the protection of Canada's economic security from disruption due to foreign intelligence services.

A key element of the CSIS mandate is to advise law enforcement agencies of terrorist threats thereby allowing police to take preventive action or arrest perpetrators.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is an essential part of our national security system, being responsible for protective security and for investigating security offences.

In addition to its responsibilities under the Security Offences Act it also provides security for VIPs, federal properties, including some airports and for foreign embassies and missions here on our soil. CSIS and the RCMP work closely together and it is my role as Solicitor General to work to ensure that the two agencies do not fail in their work to provide effective protection for Canadians and Canadian interests.

For example, CSIS provides security and threat assessments and the RCMP provides protective security for major events which have the potential to attract terrorists and extremists.

By way of conclusion, I want to say that this government in the speech from the throne committed itself to playing an active internationalist role in the global arena. As the speech said, in the light of the radical changes which have occurred in international affairs in the last few years, the government has asked parliamentary committees to review Canada's foreign and defence policies and priorities.

Mr. Speaker, we will want to follow these reviews closely and analyze the results for possible implications for our national security system.

Clearly, we should be prepared to make necessary adjustments in light of changing national security interests and realignment of foreign and defence priorities.

As I have just discussed, our orientation and national security is influenced considerably by the global security environment. Just as our national security system has undergone adjustment and reorientation over the last 10 years, so must we be ready to adapt and reorient in the coming years. I say this because Canadians are concerned about their sense of security in the world, a world that is ever more influencing our conduct at home in terms of the economy, jobs and protecting the environment and protecting our democratic institutions.

I believe that Canadians want an effective national security system. Therefore our government intends to pay close attention to national security issues but in a manner consistent with our democratic institutions and with our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I have no doubt that hon. members expect no less.