Debates of April 14th, 1994

Budget Implementation Act, 1994

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

No cuts were made, but we were told that money was going to be injected in a fund for industrial conversion. However, there is nothing in this program. We are told that there is still the program created a few years ago, a program that the Minister of Finance disapproved, saying that it was totally inadequate. What the Minister of Finance is telling us this year is exactly what the Conservatives were telling us.

As far as women are concerned, the Deputy Prime Minister came to Montreal for a political show, saying that specific measures were going to be taken in favour of women. But what is there in this budget? Social housing is a major concern for women who are single parents. Nothing. When you say that from now on, you will take into account whether or not there is a supplementary revenue in a couple to make it clear as to the unemployment insurance benefits a person will be entitled to receive, that concerns mostly women. Then, you go witch hunting. A bit like the Bourrassa hit squad, the boubou-macoutes, in Quebec, there will be the Martin hit squad-the Rin-Tin-Tin brigade?-which is going to check if a person lives alone and is entitled to 57 or 55 per cent.

In fact, those measures are specifically designed for women. Those measures are reactionary and aggressive. You also promised health care centres for women and day care centres. Then again, we are told that we will have to wait. In three to four years, you will come back promising day care centres. A bit like Duplessis, who said that anyone who promised to build the same bridge at each election would be certain to hold power for ten years or so. Day care centres were promised by the Trudeau Liberals, the Turner Liberals and the Chrétien Liberals. However, as long as the Liberals are in power, our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren will never enjoy day care centres.

Just think of the cuts in the social programs. During three Conservative budgets, all we heard about was cutbacks. Meanwhile, the Liberals, who have sensitive souls, kept on saying that it was terrible and, while referring to the fine words the Prime Minister had on Canada, said that we had to restore the help for assistance to social and minority groups. However, the Prime Minister reduces help for all French-speaking groups. He does not do what he says he is going to do. That is exactly how he behaves.

I believe that my time has expired. I will come back to that later.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

It being 5.58 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Co-Operative Housing

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government should reach agreements with the government of Quebec to reactivate the co-operative housing program, introduce a renovation assistance program for rental housing and reintroduce a social housing program, while leaving complete authority for all these programs in the hands of the government of Quebec.

Madam Speaker, the motion I have the honour to present today in the House is composed of two very distinct parts, the reinstatement of several social housing programs and the transfer of authority for such programs to Quebec. I will first comment on the two parts separately before explaining how they are linked together.

Let us begin with the reactivation of social housing programs. Canada is one of the industrialized countries investing the least in social housing. In fact, in 1990, the national social research institute noted that social housing accounted for only 4 per cent of all housing in Canada, whereas it varied between 15 and 40 per cent in most Western European economies. One can wonder why there is such a difference in housing policies between governments facing the same economic ups and downs.

This government replaced an administration renowned for its weak commitment towards social housing. Nevertheless, if our new government goes on the way it chose in the last budget, its record after one mandate will be even worse than the previous one's.

A review of the social housing situation over the last few years is imperative. In accordance with a 1986 federal-provincial agreement, funding for social housing built in Quebec was shared by Quebec and Ottawa. In the case of low-cost housing, federal funding was at 59 per cent. For housing cooperatives and non-profit housing for low-income persons, it reached 75 per cent. Pierre Graveline, journalist at Le Devoir , mentioned in an article published on April 5, 1994 that one out of six households renting their dwelling must spend more than half its income in rent and one out of three spends more than 30 per cent. Since this is too much for some of them, the number of claims presented by owners who want to cancel the leases and recover their rent has increased by 250 per cent between 1990 and 1993. In all, 341,000 households have a core housing need in Quebec and would be admissible to social housing, and I am not counting the 20,000 totally homeless persons.

In fact, between 1989 and 1994, federal expenditures for the building and renovation of housing units have gone from $112 million to zero. As for federal budgets for building new cooperative housing, they went from $7.2 million in 1988 to nothing in 1992.

Therefore, people who need housing in Canada have lost a total of $119.2 million. Even if, during the last campaign, the Liberals committed themselves to unfreeze the CMHC's budget in order to make it possible to build 5,000 new cooperative housing units annually in Canada, they have made no provision for cooperative housing and the building of housing units. On February 16, 1994, when answering a member of the Bloc Quebecois who was asking if the rents of the recipients would in fact increase by 5 per cent of their income, the Minister of Public Works declared, in this House: "One cannot put a hand on one's heart and plead for new social housing for Canadians across this country and only look at one side of the ledger, which is to cut expenditures and duplication, without looking at the other aspect in terms of revenue increases".

How can this government make such statements? How can this government calmly contemplate the idea of charging the population it wants to help for the cost of the assistance it brings? This is what will happen in fact. The government will say to the have-nots of our society: We will help you find housing because you are poor, but you will have to pay an additional 5 per cent of your income for rent to cover the costs of that help.

How can any government look at a social housing program as if it were a business deal meant to bring in profit?

Does the word "social" mean anything to this government? Madam Speaker, the poor should not have to bear the cost of social housing. Governments should cut unnecessary spending and reinvest these amounts in programs for the neediest members of our society.

Different problems require different solutions. People on low incomes who are home-owners need financial help to make repairs. The RRAP program which has just been reinstated can provide a partial response to this kind of situation. Unfortunately, the program has its limitations: income criteria are such that very few people living in urban areas can take advantage of the program.

On the other hand, certain needs are no longer being met. Take, for instance, people who would like to be part of a housing co-operative. This type of housing meets a specific need. Often it may be the only way for low and middle-income families to become home-owners.

In its report released in May 1991, the Conseil de la famille said that "a housing co-operative is an excellent way to help families become acquainted with the responsibilities and advantages of home-ownership".

It is also a fact that housing co-operatives generate employment, whether we are talking about construction or renovation. Furthermore, every new co-operative housing unit that is built provides governments with significant tax revenues, including personal and corporate income tax, contributions to the Canada Pension Plan, sales tax and development tax. Finally, providing access to home ownership makes it possible to free accommodation for other families that are in need.

There are also people on low incomes who want access to low-cost rental housing. As we all know, there is no budget for building new units. According to the FRAPRU, we would need at least 195,000 new social housing units in Canada. In Saint-Sauveur alone, in my riding, an estimated 3,000 new units would be required. However, this government has decided not to build any.

When he appeared before the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development, Mr. Brown, president of the canadian housing coalition, questioned payments made under the Canada Assistance Plan for housing. Like other coalition members, he feels that this money could be better spent. They decry the fact that a good part of this money goes towards paying the rent and ends up in the landlord's pocket. According to Mr. Brown, it is not an investment. Instead of being invested in co-op or non-profit housing programs, this money is just poured down the drain. We agree with Mr. Brown.

Current rehabilitation assistance programs for rental housing are inadequate. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that instead of dealing with things that are important for tenants, such as insulation and soundproofing, renovations are done for purely cosmetic reasons. Between 1990 and 1992, in Quebec alone, $44.84 million went towards painting against $7.31 million for insulation and soundproofing. One will understand that poor insulation affects only tenants since they are the ones who have to pay for their own power and heating bills. It was also noted that there was no systematic control of rent increases after renovations.

A study undertaken by the City of Montreal in 1989 showed that renovations had disastrous consequences for tenants. It was found that the average rent increase was $127 a month. Similarly, a CMHC survey concluded that subsidies benefited landlords, not their tenants.

Indeed, slightly more than half of these tenants stayed in their apartments after the renovations and they experienced an average rent increase of 11 per cent. So, we can draw the conclusion that, in the end, tenants pay for part of the landlord's investments and that rents still keep on increasing.

To remedy such a situation, we believe that the government should implement measures to ensure that subsidies for renovations benefit tenants.

The government could also be in favour of grants being directly paid to tenants, which would allow them to get some decent housing or even buy a house. This would help people who spend more than 25 per cent of their income on rent. As we have seen, the needs are great and the programs are inadequate.

Let us now talk of Quebec's control. The Canadian government stresses the fact that it needs the cooperation of the provinces. In Quebec's case in particular, we believe that this cooperation is unnecessary, since the whole housing assistance budget should be transferred to Quebec, and Quebec should have total control over it.

The federal government entered the social housing field by virtue of its spending power, whereas social housing is first and foremost a provincial jurisdiction. Mr. Justice Duff, on behalf of the Supreme Court of Canada, stated in 1938, in the referral on the Ontario Adoption Act: "Provinces have the responsibility to care for people in need". Nobody will deny the fact that social housing is for people in need.

We demand that the federal government give back to Quebec total control over social housing programs. We demand also that it transfer to Quebec the amounts that are due to it according to the needs of the Quebec people.

As it was said over and over again, 25 per cent of all renting households in Canada that spend more than 30 per cent of their income on rent are in Quebec, and 33 per cent of those which must set aside more than 50 per cent of their income just for rent are also in Quebec. It shows how important social housing is for Quebec. It is important that the Quebec government be able to decide, according to its needs, its organizational structures and its social priorities, where it wants to invest.

For investments to be more efficient, it is important that the decision-making process be exclusively in the hands of provincial and local authorities. It is important that the allocation criteria be based upon the situation in Quebec, and not the situation in other parts of Canada. Also important is the harmonization of the social housing programs with other social programs made for and by Quebec, for and by its citizens. Quebeckers do not want the federal government to interfere in areas of jurisdiction they consider their very own.

Thus, to get better social housing, we need massive investments, under various forms, to meet the needs of all Canadians and Quebeckers. However, Quebec wants these investments to be managed by its own government, according to its needs, its standards and priorities. Social housing is only one component

of social programs, which fall under provincial jurisdiction. Quebec must be put in charge as soon as possible.

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to address the motion.

Frankly I am dismayed by the apparent substance of the hon. member's motion. From my reading of it, she is in favour of receiving funding for housing but with no strings attached.

Not only does this go against all logic and common sense, it goes against the spirit and the tradition of partnership of governments working together in the Canadian federation.

I am sure members in this House will agree that the federal government must ensure equal access to federal programs from coast to coast. Moreover, publics funds must be managed in such a way as to benefit all Canadians.

I would like to stress the fact that the Canadian government has always worked in partnership with Quebec and the other provincial governments. We deal with the various aspects of this very complex housing issue by sharing responsibilities. Why? Because Canadians want the same national standards to prevail throughout Canada so that access to affordable housing does not vary from one jurisdiction to another.

All governments recognize the need to find creative solutions to facilitate the provision of affordable and accessible housing because housing involves various levels of government, all of which must be working in partnership to achieve progress. The federal government believes in the need to adopt a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach in this sphere.

This being said, the governments of Canada and Quebec have a long tradition of working together in the area of housing. We intend to maintain that strong co-operation for the good of all Canadians. This co-operation has a name, we call it compassion. This means that Canadians care for their fellow Canadians, and the government will not abandon that compassion.

Abandon is, in my opinion, something to keep in mind. I would like to remind the hon. member that it is the leader of her party, when he was a member of the previous Cabinet, who oversaw the abolition of all social housing programs, including those for housing co-ops, for non-profit housing, and for owners, whether they be occupants or leasers. The people who used to benefit from these programs are the same the hon. member seeks to help with this motion.

Madam Speaker, the government is presently reviewing these programs to make them more responsive to the needs of the people who were abandoned by the previous government and the present leader of the Official Opposition.

In contrast to the actions of the previous government, I would like to make known to the House some of the initiatives of the Liberal government. The major effort on the part of the federal-provincial-territorial partnership in the delivery of social housing funds has been to meet core housing needs. The objective is to assist families or individuals most in need, those who would have to spend more than 30 per cent of their income for suitable, adequate accommodation on the private market.

The latest figures, for December 31, 1993, show that there are more than 140,000 family units administered in Quebec and in 1992-93, the Government of Canada spent over $318 million on affordable housing in Quebec alone.

I am thinking, for example, of the Creesom housing initiative which helps disadvantaged people in southwestern Montreal. Madam Speaker, despite the cuts that governments must make, the federal government will give this original and innovative program $5.1 million in financial aid over a four-year period so that it can continue to help people on low and moderate incomes own property, individually or collectively. In co-operation with the City of Montreal, the Government of Canada will commit to 100 co-op housing units as part of the Creesom program in southwestern Montreal.

As well, the Government of Quebec recently announced a renovation program for low income home owners, Réparaction. In light of the reinstatement and provincial renovation program the federal government will be working with the province of Quebec to put in place cost sharing agreements.

In addition, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation offers financial assistance for victims of violence. The Project Haven and Next Step programs provide emergency and long-term shelter for victims and their children.

Under Project Haven, which expired on March 21, 1992, commitments were made for 458 emergency shelters in 78 municipalities. The second phase of the family violence initiative, Next Step, expires on March 31, 1995. This phase provides for 150 independent housing units and 100 emergency shelters, with a budget of $20.6 million. By January 31, 1994, 46

independent units and 53 emergency shelters had been completed, at a cost of $4.5 million. That is far from nothing, Madam Speaker.

As for Quebec, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation is working in collaboration with the Government of Quebec to create eight new shelters which will be completed by the end of March 1995. Three are already in service and the others are either under construction or at the design stage.

As I am sure members can appreciate, the demand for this type of facility far exceeds the level of resources that we have been able to direct for the establishment of new shelters and the funds to March 31, 1995 have already been committed.

I think we all understand that the fiscal capacity of all governments is extremely limited, and that includes the Government of Quebec. However I believe we must also take into account societal problems and priorities, and not simply focus strictly on fiscal solutions.

To conclude, I will say that in this area it is difficult to have a perfect balance, but the Government of Canada is trying very hard and is having good results thanks to a close partnership with all Canadian provinces, including Quebec.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, this is the second time that the Bloc Quebecois has put forward a motion on social housing. This is the second time that I have risen to speak against it.

The first motion deplored the fact that the government had not increased or re-established funding for social housing construction programs. However this time its concern is more emotional.

In the first motion debated on February 16, the Bloc declared that it was interested in social housing support for all Canadians. Let me be clear, the Bloc carries a singular agenda. The only care that the Bloc has for Canada is to take what it can and separate post haste.

The motion before us is terribly wrong minded. It fails to appreciate the economic reality our country faces today. The taxpayers of Canada, you and I, Madam Speaker, my children and my grandchildren will pay for this folly of overspending.

The combined debt is now over $600 billion and the federal deficit is predicted to be about $40 billion. Despite this colossal financial lodestone, the Bloc Quebecois is saying the government has not yet spent enough. It is urging the government to spend more, to increase the deficit and the debt, to climb aboard this runaway debt train, giving no thought to fixing its brakes.

It is important to clearly establish what is needed before we blindly commit to throwing around millions of dollars.

A 1992 study stated that the majority of people on welfare received adequate support to meet their basic housing needs. It stated that the traditional solution has been to spend a fortune on these programs and if things are not improving, throw more money at them.

In its 1991 annual report the CMHC agrees that social housing needs can be met under the existing funding plan. The report states that more of an effort must be made to achieve greater cost effectiveness so that more can be done with the available budgets.

I recognize that we need a major social revenue in Canada. However, throwing money at a singular and specific problem is not a good resolution. We need to assess what the problem is and then address it specifically.

The clamour for federal funding support is not decreasing. The demand is there but there are fewer dollars to spread around. Given this, new innovative ideas are needed to ensure sound fiscal management at all levels of government.

In 1988 all three levels of government spent under $3 billion on housing or $114 for every person in Canada. That is up from just $366 million or $17 per capital in 1970. Yet poverty advocates claim the housing problem is as acute as ever.

Given that this funding spiral cannot continue unabated, it is more important than ever that housing subsidies, like other forms of assistance-and we said this over and over again-be targeted to those in need. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation ensures that all Canadians, regardless of who they are and where they live in Canada, have equal access to federal resources allocated for housing. CMHC currently administers more than 652,000 units.

Despite these enormous holdings, my hon. colleague would have us believe that more money yet needs to be spent on social housing programs in Quebec. In the fiscal year 1994-95, according to the main estimates for public works and government services, CMHC will receive $2,033,779,000 for social housing alone. Of this approximately $366 million will be going to the province of Quebec. That represents about 18 per cent of CMHC's total budget for social housing.

In comparison, Alberta, my province will receive approximately $150 million. For every dollar that Alberta receives, Quebec gets $2.25.

Believe me, Albertans question this transfer payment ratio even more so as they work through a seriously difficult time, difficult days of deep, deep cuts to our provincial programs.

While we are doing comparisons, let us take a quick look at the United States provision for social housing. When the leader of the Queen's Loyal Opposition visited the U.S. I wonder if he discussed social housing spending habits with the Americans. Canada may not yet be a paradise of social housing but we are sure not doing too badly in comparison with the U.S.

We spend approximately $114 a year per capita on social housing while in the U.S. that expenditure is about $40 per year per capita. We spend almost three times as much right now.

Therefore Canada is not facing serious social housing problems. It is facing serious economic problems. This government fails to recognize that we are facing a financial crisis. This motion shows that the Bloc also fails to recognize it.

Canadian and international money markets are hugely unstable because this government cannot keep its spending under control and shows scant interest in doing so. The Canadian dollar is in a sinkhole, interest rates are rising and despite a decrease in the unemployment rate the dollar remains unstable, an indicator that investors have lost faith in our economy.

In principle the solution to the problem is simple. The government needs to put a cap on spending. The government needs to clearly demonstrate to the financial communities both within and without Canada that it is serious about reducing the deficit.

I can assure the government that if it introduced measures of this kind it would find support from my side of the House. All members of this Parliament should be mindful that we cannot spend ourselves out of a recession. Governments have tried this for 15 years and it has not worked.

It is for these economic reasons that Gordon Thiessen, the head of the Bank of Canada, stated on April 5 that to inspire consumer and market confidence this government will have to address its debt and deficit situation by cutting spending.

Given this, when members in this House put forward matters for debate, especially when those matters involve the spending of taxpayers dollars which are at a premium, they must ask themselves: Who will pay? Where will the money come from? Could this be done better and more cheaply?

I see no indication that the Bloc either heard what Mr. Thiessen said last week or that it considered even asking questions such as these. It must be too busy figuring out strategies for separation.

We cannot condone yet more money being siphoned off by Quebec. Constituents from my riding are getting very tired of seeing their tax dollars inequitably flushed into the province of Quebec, especially given the Bloc's mandate for separation.

Alberta's transfer payments have been capped and the need to cut spending has been recognized there. But here is the Bloc yet again with its hand out asking for extra money.

In its strategic plan for 1992 through to 1996 CMHC does not mention a need for increased funding nor a need to increase programs in Quebec. However, in a businesslike move in keeping with the private sector, the CMHC is promoting cost effective programming and management.

Finally, this demand for social housing support is an indicator of a larger economic problem. Simply spending more money to alleviate social housing problems is like trying to tend to a fever of 105 by rolling someone in the snow. You may cool the body for a short period of time but surely you have not found out why that body is sick.

Quebec needs to look more closely at this problem. The Bloc Quebecois is showing that as a province said to be on the verge of separation, it clearly lacks an appreciation for its own economic, social and political upheaval.

[Robert Bertrand, Liberal, Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on this motion that raises important issues. However, since this is the first time that I rise in the House, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the constituents of Pontiac-Gatineau-Labelle for the vote of confidence they gave me last October.

I am pleased to address the House in reply to a motion that raises very important issues. Our country benefits from a shared heritage based on compassion. We do care about the well-being of our neighbours. We help them when they are in need and this government is not about to end that tradition.

I am convinced that hon. members in this House agree with me when I say that the federal government must be at the forefront, along with the provinces, to ensure that poor Canadians can live in adequate dwellings.

This government's vision of Canada includes all Canadians, regardless of their income, their language or their social condition. Our vision is that of a country where everyone can enjoy a quality of life, where we are responsible for the well-being of each other, and where people remain optimistic about their future and that of their children.

There is no doubt in my mind that this vision includes the provision of adequate dwellings to all Canadians. It is absolute-

ly out of the question to exclude people merely because they need help to meet their basic need for shelter.

Our support is necessary and we have found ways to help these people. I am referring to the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program, or RRAP, and to the Emergency Repair Program, or EARP.

In his recent budget the Minister of Finance has struck a balance between the need for fiscal restraint and the need for social responsibility.

By reinstating RRAP including RRAP for the disabled and EARP the government is making a real difference in the lives of low income Canadians, families, seniors, people with disabilities, aboriginals. Through this program with a total of $100 million, $50 million over each of the next two years, we are helping these people make basic repairs to their homes.

We know, however, that these public funds are insufficient. To put an end to poverty, we must eliminate restrictive policies which prevent innovative solutions.

Given the budget constraints, we will look for available resources and tools to invest in Canadians, and to create a climate allowing native peoples to develop their potential and progress towards economic and social self-determination.

We are not alone in thinking that these programs are important to the people of Canada. We have approached the provinces about cost sharing to maximize the impact of these programs. We have received favourable responses. With the provinces contributing to RRAP and EARP, with the provinces working in partnership with the federal government, we will be able to help even more people than we expected.

The social impact of these programs is not to be overstated. My colleagues need to be aware of an important element to these programs. It is an element I should think they would appreciate for not only is this government introducing programs to help house Canadians. It is also providing a much needed economic boost to the Canadian economy. There is economic stimulus. Yes, RRAP and EARP will create thousands of jobs in communities across the country.

It goes without saying that investment in renovating housing enhances older modest income communities and encourages other forms of neighbourhood improvement. What we are talking about here is an investment in the physical and social fabric of our communities, providing more affordable housing of adequate quality with a relatively small investment per unit.

The RRAP and ERP funds are smart expenditures that will pay off economically by stimulating the renovation sector and creating much needed jobs and, at the human level, by helping people repair their homes to bring them up to minimum health and safety standards. That is the purpose of these programs.

We are talking about minimum standards and not luxury; basic requirements for the health and safety of occupants and for energy efficiency. What every Canadian expects. Something the government should not have to justify.

I am proud of the fact that my government made a firm commitment in its red book to reinstate the residential rehabilitation assistance program. I am proud the Minister of Finance included RRAP and EARP in his recent budget. How many other programs do we know of that help low income families, seniors, people with disabilities and aboriginals all at the same time?

We believe we are making the right fiscal decisions and we intend to continue to do more. We intend to stretch our social housing dollars as far as possible.

The federal government currently provides approximately $2 billion in assistance to over 659,000 households across the country. We know that the need is greater than our ability to meet it. We know we have to find creative and innovative ways to make our social housing dollars work better.

One way we intend to achieve this is by identifying savings and efficiencies. Taxpayers have a right to expect an efficient government. I have agreed with my provincial and territorial colleagues that we will work together to ensure efficient delivery of housing programs. We will continue to provide an acceptable level of service and we will do it while making the best use of taxpayers' dollars.

We are already moving in that direction. Last August, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation started making loans to finance and refinance social housing units to better use available resources and reduce expenditures. Through direct loans, CMHC will refinance social housing units at balanced rates, thus reducing the cost of housing assistance.

We are talking about improving social housing efficiency. CMHC will save about $120 million in grants over the next four years, out of an $11 billion budget. CMHC will lend directly to qualified social housing borrowers when loans come due or when advances are required for new commitments.

This is only one measure, one case of using resources more efficiently and reducing expenditures. I made a commitment to work with my provincial and territorial colleagues to reduce administration costs and make program delivery more efficient.

At the end of the day we expect to identify savings that can be reinvested in social housing, to keep the existing social housing stock in good repair and to allow for new commitments. Our commitment to social housing must not simply be measured in terms of public expenditure. We have to look at housing within the broader and more comprehensive context of market forces and overall economic and social policy.

Along with the provinces, territories and interested stakeholders, we will be taking action to ensure that rules and regulations do not impede the creation of affordable housing. We will ensure that housing policies and programs encourage people to seek new opportunities to break out of the poverty cycle.

We want to ensure that the private market is able to provide affordable housing for Canadians. We are currently looking into new financial instruments which will increase access to housing for Canadians. We are also considering reintroducing indexed link mortgages for co-operatives.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Madam Speaker, again today, I have the opportunity to rise to ask the Liberal government to act quickly to respond to the pressing housing needs of 1,200,000 Canadians.

So far, the representations and lobbying by community organizations, by members of the Official Opposition and even by some members across the floor who have shown a little interest and resolve, have yielded nothing. Zero, zilch. Since January of this year, the government has invested nothing at all in social housing programs. Low-cost housing, non-profit organizations, co-operative housing were completely neglected and forgotten by the Liberals. In fact, the members opposite do nothing else but close their eyes and renew the policies of the Conservatives. This attitude on the part of the Liberals is shameful and totally unacceptable. Do they not remember that, not so long ago, when they were the Official Opposition, they spent a lot of time condemning the Conservative government for withdrawing funding for social housing? Do they not remember that?

And that is not all. The Liberals said that they wanted to work together with housing organizations in order to establish a national policy on social housing. They even promised to fully restore all programs. The Minister of Finance even wrote this in a letter to various organizations dated September 22, 1993, and I quote: "There is no doubt that a Liberal government will ensure funding for these sectors. We think that the state must adopt a positive and dynamic national policy in this area. It is incumbent on general management to ensure that over one million Canadian families are provided with decent and affordable housing".

The minister ended that letter by stating, and again I quote: "to that end, we wish to establish new partnerships with your organizations. I believe that over the past three years, our leader, our members of Parliament as well as our official critic for social housing, Joe Fontana, have consistently showed our commitment to social housing. We therefore rely on your co-operation on this socio-economic issue, which is of the highest importance", and I stress "of the highest importance". The letter is signed Paul Martin. Those are the words our dear Minister of Finance wrote on September 22 last.

Where are they today, those members of Parliament, this leader and this official critic, to show their commitment to social housing? They have vanished! Gone too are all those lovely speeches and the will to provide decent housing to needy families.

But what happened since then? Why did the members opposite completely change their mind? It is unacceptable and dishonest for elected and accountable people to alter their course in mid-stream. How can the population now seriously believe the Minister of Finance? How can he live with the words he wrote without feeling shame, without feeling any remorse? The minister looks a bit silly today and his credibility is no better than his social housing programs which deserve a big zero. They call him the sinister Minister of Finance.

And yet, the needs are obviously huge and urgent. The Canada, I repeat, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation estimates that 1,200,000 families are in urgent need of housing. How can you ignore this reality? How can you ignore such glaring statistics? The members opposite so free with their promises have no vision. All they are good at is damage control. They are unable to plan for the long term. They do not manage anything, they only hope and wait for things to get better on their own.

They put nothing on the table, no plan, no policy to deal with the housing crisis. In the meantime, people in substandard housing are waiting. They are hoping that the Liberal government will be true to its promises and will immediately provide funds to build low-rent housing, as well as non-profit and co-op housing. Hundreds of thousands of families find this wait increasingly hard to take. Several of them spend more than 50 per cent of their income on rent. Such poverty has devastating effects.

Every month, these poor families living in substandard housing have to make inhuman choices. Every month, in order to pay for their rent, they have to deprive their children of such essentials as food. Children go hungry and live in substandard housing because the government is not acting responsibly. This projects a very bad image in a society as affluent and developed as ours.

The government's lack of action is indecent. The minister in charge of social housing is telling us his cupboard is bare and that we must wait for savings that the CMHC could manage over the next few years. The Liberals keep us waiting and waiting. They are in favour of a wait-and-see policy. They sit back and wait for some heaven-sent manna. We must admire the strength, courage and inventiveness of this new government.

It is not ten years from now that we need social housing, Madam Speaker, it is right now. All the organizations, all the municipalities, all the big cities are asking tthe government to reinstate and increase funding for social housing. The Liberals are deaf and blind. They have been in place for six months now, and they still ask the people to be patient.

We on this side of the House want the government to release public funds immediately so that we can start projects now. You do not have the money? Well, cut the fat, put public finances on a sound footing and get rid of tax shelters for the wealthy. If you had any guts, if you had the political will, you would do your homework and find the money.

In Quebec, the situation is more problematic because more people live in rental accommodation. The problem is more acute, more urgent. The federal government is reneging on its commitments and the provincial Liberals are not putting up much of a fight.

Nevertheless, the federal government still has a role to play in this area. We in Quebec pay federal taxes and we are entitled to our fair share. We want the government to give Quebec its share of those taxes and we will take care of our own social housing. The Société d'habitation du Québec has all the tools and expertise it needs to develop its own programs.

Soon Quebeckers will decide what their future will be. We will then be able to administer our own social and economic development. Meanwhile, give us our share and stop ignoring the demands of the poor and people living in substandard housing across this country. Patience may be a virtue, but enough is enough.

[Georgette Sheridan, Liberal, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Madam Speaker, I am proud to rise in the House today on behalf of the Government of Canada to speak to this motion.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to stress the commitment of this government in the area of housing. This government acknowledges the right to adequate and affordable housing for all Canadians, not only in Quebec but all over Canada. This is a most important commitment for this government.

I am sure every single member in this House thinks housing is important for our quality of life and for the prosperity of our communities.

Our government intends to keep contributing to housing and working hand in hand with its various partners so that as many Canadians as possible can find adequate and affordable housing.

This government also strongly supports social housing and keeps its promises but it has to consider the present fiscal situation.

Our approach balances the need to pursue fiscal restraint with the need to recognize and respond to the social needs of the more vulnerable members of our society.

The federal government is committed to a national co-ordinated approach to ensure that Canadians are well housed. The federal government has maintained its commitment of approximately $2 billion in annual expenditures on social housing assistance. Through this funding we are able to provide support to some 659,000 low income households across the country. These include singles, families, seniors, persons with disabilities, aboriginals and fellow citizens who are unable to meet their basic housing needs on their own.

Given the difficulties presented by the deficit, this is a serious commitment that reflects the concern of the government for the plight of society's most vulnerable citizens.

Let me underline as well that these expenditures provide a powerful economic stimulus, generating considerable employment in communities across the country year after year.

As my colleagues know, we have taken immediate action to reinstate the residential rehabilitation assistance program. Again this is a program that helps low income Canadians meet their basic housing needs. RRAP grants are used to help people bring their homes up to minimum standards of health and safety.

The federal contribution of $100 million over two years will go a long way toward helping low income Canadians make basic repairs to their homes.

This significant commitment of resources will also generate a much needed economic stimulus by creating thousands of jobs both directly and indirectly in the construction industry, real estate, manufacturing and related services.

However, to meet the challenges we are faced with in the area of housing, we need more than mere financial assistance. We need a commitment from all levels of government and from all stakeholders in the housing sector.

With everyone's co-operation, we will be able to reach our goals. To meet the challenges, we must first create solid partnerships.

The minister responsible for housing has met with many of our partners in that area. In fact, he held two meetings with some associations in order to better understand the problems facing this sector and to invite them to suggest improvements in some areas. Given the current financial situation in Canada, all levels of government must co-operate more and focus their efforts on protecting the social fabric of this country, which greatly depends on the housing sector. We can reach this goal by helping Canadians find good, affordable housing of the right size.

We have a long tradition of partnership in the country. Federal and provincial governments have long worked together to create cost share and deliver social housing to needy Canadians.

In this era of fiscal restraint we no longer have the funding levels of the past. Just because our funds are limited it does not mean that our imaginations need to be limited or our efforts cut short. Partnership has brought us success in the past. It will help us to achieve further success today and in the future.

Federal-provincial relations with respect to social housing have long been defined by a set of principles. National standards are the cornerstone of these principles. Productive partnerships through which consensus is achieved have always been an important part of relations between the different levels of government. This must continue.

In an effort to consolidate partnership among levels of government the minister responsible for housing met with his federal, provincial and territorial colleagues last January. At that meeting all ministers agreed on the need to work together on behalf of those in need of social housing assistance. They also agreed to undertake a concerted effort to identify program efficiencies that will lead to savings and ultimately enable us to do more with our social housing budgets.

The federal government's commitment to housing for Canadians recognizes there are groups who have special needs to meet. We must strive to meet their needs.

Coming from Saskatchewan as I do, I cannot help but think of the aboriginal community. The plight of this particular sector of society needs to be addressed. CMHC has a long tradition of working in partnership with the aboriginal community to work out solutions to housing issues. The government is focusing its attention on supporting the native community in the goal of achieving greater self-sufficiency and control over their lives.

Another sector are the victims of family violence. As members of the House well know the rate of family violence continues to increase. It is my fervent hope the day will come when we no longer need to build and maintain shelters for women and children who are fleeing domestic violence.

In the meantime however the government will continue to address these issues in the best way it can by providing financial assistance for Project Haven and Project Next Step. These two programs provide emergency shelter and long term housing for victims of family violence and their children.

The government is well aware there is still much work to do to ensure all Canadians have access to decent, affordable housing. We believe we are on the right track and that we are taking positive steps and making a real difference in the lives of many Canadians. We are committed to working in partnership with housing groups and stakeholders in Canada to pursue our objective of providing decent, adequate and affordable housing for Canadians.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired. Pursuant to Standing Order 96(1) the order is dropped from the Order Paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Madam Speaker, on January 20 and 21 last, my colleague from Rimouski-Témiscouata and myself questioned the Minister of Canadian Heritage about the ever-present discrimination faced by Quebeckers in amateur sport in Canada.

Just days before the Olympic Games opened in Lillehammer, Hockey Team Canada still had not recruited a single player from Quebec. We deplored at the time that the team setting out to represent Canada in the Olympics in our national sport did not reflect more accurately the complex make-up of the Canadian society.

Shortly after the Official Opposition had raised this issue in the House of Commons, one player from Quebec was added in extremis to Team Canada's lineup. I think that the contemptuous attitude displayed at the time toward Quebeckers by Team Canada officials must be deplored. It is appalling and it was not

the first, nor the last, time this kind of thing happened, as we can well imagine.

In Canada, amateur sport is a real breeding ground of discrimination against Quebeckers, yet the minister seems to be indifferently washing his hands of the matter. In such instances, far from expressing our collective pride, sport breeds nothing but spite and injustice. What is the minister waiting for to realize there is a problem and to take steps to remedy the situation? Is he waiting for more cases of discrimination to occur in the amateur sport?

Let us take the case of Myriam Bédard, twice a gold medal winner, who was harassed and suspended by unilingual English-speaking bureaucrats of Biathlon Canada who threatened to throw her out of the national team of "her" country because she refused to obey unjust orders of a federation that wanted to break its sole star. Mr. Réjean Tremblay, reporter of the daily newspaper La Presse wrote an article on that.

There is also the case of the Quebecker figure skaters Paul and Isabelle Duchesnay, bronze medallists in dance at the Albertville Olympic Games, who were forced to wear the colours of France because of the intransigence of the Canadian Figure Skating Association.

Following the Lillehammer Games, Canada as a whole had to acknowledge and appreciate the merits of athletes from Quebec who had distinguished themselves by their talent but also by their tenacity and determination. And God knows they need a lot of tenacity and determination to overcome all the obstacles put on their way by the Canadian amateur sport system.

Nevertheless, nine of the thirteen Canadian medals were won by Quebec athletes. Is it not a clear illustration of a fundamental lesson of life, that one should not be afraid to forge ahead and have self-confidence?

One of the many problems in the amateur sport in Canada is that the distribution of powers between the national and provincial sports organizations makes the Quebec amateur sport system literally dependent on the Canadian system.

For sports events outside Canada, the selection of athletes, coaches, officials, volunteers and other sports professionals depends nearly exclusively on policies developed by the national sports associations with the result we know. Unilingual francophone athletes have an additional obstacle to overcome, in particular at the national selection stages since they cannot communicate in their own language with the coaches and people in charge of the selection and training of athletes who are unilingual anglophones in the majority of cases.

Sports professionals who are unilingual francophones face the same problem. They have less of a chance of getting a job in a Canadian sports organization.

In fact, as Sport Quebec was stressing in its submission to the Commission on the Political and Constitutional Future of Quebec, commonly known as the Bélanger-Campeau Commission, on November 2, 1986, and I quote: "Because it is directly related to Quebec's identity, the most fundamental problem is that the present system considerably limits the assertion of Quebec's policies in the field of sports, since all management is directly governed by the Canadian associations' policies".

That is another one of the many deep-rooted problems of Canadian federalism, a chronic inability to respond to Quebec's development conditions, an over-centralization aimed at imposing uniformity at all costs. I think that it is a failure, nothing less. Will the minister of Canadian Heritage finally realize that?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, it is with pleasure that, on behalf of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, I will answer to the question raised by my colleague from Verchères. He knows very well that his arguments are unfounded.

First, I would like to make a point: the selection of athletes for the Canadian Olympic Hockey Team is ultimately the responsibility of Hockey Canada, not that of the federal government.

Hockey Canada has a very vast network of connections which allows it to be aware of the availability of players. The organization is in constant contact with coaches, scouts, league managers, agents and player representatives, team owners and managers. It consults these resource-persons regularly in order to stay aware of the schedule and the hours to which the players must conform.

The majority of the players are professional and Hockey Canada had the task of dealing with numerous National Hockey League clubs, European hockey leagues, and universities and colleges in Canada and the United States for the services of the players, not always an easy task.

The Olympic hockey team that played at the winter games in Lillehammer had 23 players, including two francophones from outside Quebec, Adrian Aucoin and Chris Thérien. Jean-Yves Roy, from Rosemère in Quebec, presently with the New York Rangers, was also a member of that team.

It is not true that there were no Quebeckers on Canada's Olympic hockey team. Many Quebec players were considered for the team, but were not retained, primarily because they simply were not available.

A number of factors influence the formation of the Olympic team. Certainly the team rose to the occasion meeting the challenge imposed by the Olympics.

The players showed great determination and unparalleled team spirit. Throughout the country, their achievements were a source of pride and admiration. That is what is most important, in my opinion, for Canadians.

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON]

Madam Speaker, on March 18 I asked a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food regarding comments made by the American Secretary of Agriculture. Secretary Espy wanted a cap on wheat exports to the U.S. and zero tariffs on poultry, dairy and eggs. I asked the minister for his assurance that Canadian farmers would be protected.

Reports in the media are stating that Canada has softened its position in the farm trade battle with the U.S. because of strong American pressure. The fact is Canada is not the only country that is suspect of its relationship with the United States. There is a growing resentment about American bullying tactics from several other nations at the same time.

What work is the government undertaking to establish stronger world trading rules to ensure that we are not subject to the continuing American harassment?

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food]

Madam Speaker, in response to my colleague who raised that question earlier, I would like to emphasize to my colleague, to the House and to all Canadians in the industry that the minister certainly has not softened his position.

This is emphasized by the fact that the negotiations have been completed in Marrakech and Morocco for today. They will continue tomorrow. I spoke to the minister about 4.30 this afternoon and our position there and his position there is still firm, clear and forceful to the United States.

Let us not be fooled. We are in the midst of some very serious and tough negotiations on bilateral issues with the United States. We have a large two-way trade with the United States in agriculture and agri-food. It is about $11.5 billion so it is important that what we get a deal, a negotiated deal with the United States, that is in the best interest of Canadians and in the best interest of the agri-food industry in Canada. The minister will accept nothing less than that.

These negotiations were going on before the settlement in Geneva on GATT. Canada plays by the rules. Every country in the world does not always play by the rules. We will be signing on to the GATT rules. We have signed on to the NAFTA rules and those negotiations will continue. I want to make that very clear to the member and to everyone.

Our officials have been meeting over the last number of weeks with the Americans and we are not going to roll over and play dead. We have been firm. We will continue to be firm and get the best deal for the Canadian industry and for Canadian national interest.

[Warren Allmand, Liberal, Notre-Dame-De-Grâce, QC]

Madam Speaker, on March 24 the member of Parliament for Saint-Hubert and I presented a petition in Parliament with over 200,000 signatures asking that handguns be banned for private use.

This petition was sponsored by Concordia University following the murders with a handgun of four professors at the university in 1992. The murderer, who was also a professor, was able to acquire three handguns legally without much difficulty, indicating a serious weakness in the law. Later on March 24, I asked the Minister of Justice if he would give serious attention to the demands in the petitions. I asked that same question again today.

Handguns are not used for hunting and have no other legitimate use by ordinary citizens. Some members of the House and some Canadians allege that the present gun laws are not effective because we still have crimes with guns.

No laws are 100 per cent effective. On the other hand, there is no doubt that without our present laws the situation would be much worse. It has been proven over and over again that where guns are less available and more difficult to obtain, there is less crime with guns. That is an indisputable fact.

The simplistic slogan spread about by the gun lobby that if one bans guns only criminals will have guns is total nonsense. The professor murderer at Concordia University was not a criminal until he easily and legally acquired his guns and carried out his killings.

Marc Lépine, who killed 14 women at the École Polytechnique, had no criminal record before he easily and legally acquired his automatic rifle and carried out his massacre. When guns are easily and legally available some, perhaps the majority, will obtain them and use them legally. Unfortunately some will obtain them and use them criminally.

The only logical action if we are truly interested in reducing crime with guns is to make them and ammunition more difficult to obtain. This means a total ban on handguns for private use.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce for the opportunity to reply on behalf of the Minister of Justice to this most important question that he raised.

Canadians are very concerned about violence and especially about violence involving firearms. They have every right to be so concerned. As recent incidents have shown there is a need for

strict gun control in Canada. I am sure hon. members of the House share this worry.

After the tragic deaths of 14 young engineering students in 1989, almost 600,000 Canadians signed a petition calling for stronger legislation controlling firearms. Now the House has been presented with another petition in response to yet another tragedy.

I join with all members of the House in sorrow and sympathy. Our sorrow is not just for the victims of these tragic incidents and their families but for the victims of violence everywhere. We share their grief because in many ways it is our own. Violence in society is a tragedy not only for the victims but for all of us. It affects the quality of our lives and the way in which we live them.

Canadians expect more than sympathy from the government on the matter. They expect us to take measures to address their legitimate concerns. It is a tall order but one which we must take very seriously. As hon. members already know, the Minister of Justice is aware of the problem and is looking at ways to address it.

In addition to specific changes, the government is also looking at longer term crime prevention strategies. It is the view of the government that reacting to crime with harsher punishments will not serve to eliminate crime. We must try to address the root causes and to respond to crime as a social problem rather than on a case by case basis.

Finally, the voices of those Canadians who signed the petitions calling for strict controls on firearms and other weapons will be heard. We must be willing to look at any gun control option if it will improve safety and help prevent the kind of tragedies we have seen recently.

Every option should be carefully considered and decisions will be made. That is the obligation of the government and I want to assure the House that the government will take its responsibilities very seriously.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Pursuant to Standing Order 38(5), the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted.

This House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7.14 p.m.)