Debates of April 22nd, 1994

Justice

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Clark's Crossing, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I raise today the issue of Patrick Kelly who is serving a sentence for first degree murder for which he has always professed his innocence.

In recent months, in fact in December, the main witness, Dawn Taber, withdrew her testimony indicating that she had not told the truth about events surrounding the case. In fact the whole case against Patrick Kelly was based on this one eye witness testimony.

In view of the retraction of that testimony, in view of the minister's power under section 690 of the Criminal Code, and in view of the fact that the minister already has the documentation in front of him and has said that this matter will be dealt with in the fullness of time, I urge the minister to act quickly on this matter. It has been in his hands for about four or five months now.

Not only is Patrick Kelly languishing in jail for a crime he did not commit but this also raises serious questions about the efficacy of the Canadian justice system.

I urge the minister to act with haste to resolve this matter.

[The Speaker]

Before we proceed to question period I would like once again to thank all of you who have sent your statements to the interpreters. I thank you also for, if I might call it this, the cadence of the statements you are making. Usually when they are a little slower we get a chance to get better, if that is possible, interpretation.

Social Program Reform

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

Just two weeks from the date initially scheduled by the Minister of Human Resources Development to table his action plan concerning social program reform, the minister says that he "is not ready".

Also, yesterday a newspaper quoted the Minister of Finance who said: "Federal ministers, as well as Quebec's Minister of Finance, have agreed on a moratorium regarding social security reform".

Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that the Minister of Human Resources Development is improvising his reform and that, at the Minister of Finance's request, the government has decided to impose a moratorium?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, what we said and what we discussed last January with the finance ministers, is that there will be no cuts, there will be no freeze in transfers to provinces for a period of two years, precisely to give the Minister of Human Resources Development time to discuss and negotiate the necessary reforms with his counterparts.

The situation is very clear: We have decided on a moratorium to have a period of discussion and negotiation. In fact, this exercise has already been launched by the Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

I would like to know if she agrees with her colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, who said earlier this week that the duplications in the main power sector are costing $300 million to the Quebec taxpayers.

I would like to know if she maintains the assertion made by her colleague.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada is concerned with duplication at every level.

As a matter of fact we are working very hard with the province of Quebec and other provinces on harmonization of environmental laws. We are working very hard on harmonization of laws relating to trade. We are working very hard at breaking down the barriers between provinces.

We see this as an important pillar in building the Canadian economy. Anything we can do to cut down expenses to the taxpayers we will support.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister has not really answered the question. Will she confirm whether or not the figure of some $300 million quoted by the Quebec government is true, especially considering that the strategy regarding the youth program will create more duplication and overlap?

Will the Deputy Prime Minister and her government pledge to release the studies to which the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs referred, precisely to downplay duplication and overlap between Ottawa and the provinces, so that all members of this House are able to put a figure on the cost of Canadian federalism, and so that, as the Liberals promised in their red book, the whole negotiating process involving the provinces and the federal government can be more transparent?

Is the Deputy Prime Minister prepared to release those studies, as did the Quebec government in the case of the Bélanger-Campeau commission, as did the Liberal Party of Quebec, which is of course pro- federalist, and as did the Parti Quebecois in that province? Will you release these studies?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the federal government works very hard with all the provinces to reduce overlap in every sector, including human resources and the environment.

I also said that the work done by my colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, aims precisely at determining costs and reducing those costs for all taxpayers.

The hon. member asked about the cost of federalism. I think that, instead of complaining like he does about every initiative taken by the government, he should tell Quebecers about the cost of separation.

[The Speaker]

Maybe the expressions used were inappropriate. We may want to refrain from making such loaded statements.

Hibernia Project

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC]

Yesterday, we learned that the Hibernia megaproject was swallowing up even more money.

The developers are now projecting cost overruns of almost $1 billion on top of the original $5.2 billion price tag. This represents an increase in costs of close to 20 per cent. An additional $85 million in federal input and $175 millions more in loans may be required. A lot of pressure is being put on the government to pump more money into this white elephant of the nineties.

Given the sad state of our public finances, is the Deputy Prime Minister prepared to make a commitment that the government will not invest a penny more in Hibernia and that this massive drain on public funds will stop, since the potential profitability of this megaproject, which the Globe and Mail has called a real tragedy, is being challenged?

[George S. Rideout, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, first of all we should realize that these are preliminary numbers and preliminary estimates and that more detailed work is being done.

We have representatives on the board who are working to monitor the situation. We have contractual obligations as well that were entered into two years ago and we will have to honour those commitments. More money will be flowing to this project if it has an overrun.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Anjou—Rivière-Des-Prairies, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. In that case, will the Deputy Prime Minister undertake to ensure that Parliament will conduct a detailed analysis of the financing, profitability and industrial benefits of Hibernia before extending any more financial assistance?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, what is unfortunate in this situation is that the Bloc members, ever since the beginning of this new session, have been demanding job creation programs, and that is what we are trying to do.

Before asking us to axe Hibernia, I think the hon. member should take a look at who stands to benefit from these contracts? Does he realize that 34 Quebec companies are involved in the project? SNC Lavallin, MIL Davie, Monenco, Janin Construction, and Atlas Construction have all obtained contracts, following the commitment on the part of the federal government to ensure that the project is 65 per cent Canadian?

Does the hon. member want the federal government to break its commitment to SNC Lavallin, Monenco, Atlas and other private companies that need contracts from all over Canada?

Hibernia

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is also regarding white elephants which do nothing in comparison to live elephants that are able to walk.

The Hibernia project is at least a year behind schedule and at least $1 billion over budget. Canadian taxpayers are directly at risk both through government commitments and through Petro-Canada. The Minister of Natural Resources has already said that Canadians are on the hook for another $85 million.

In light of the fact that government has been able to back out of the Pearson airport deal and from the EH-101 contract, can the Deputy Prime Minister guarantee that the federal government will not spend another cent of taxpayer money on this boondoggle?

[George S. Rideout, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, it is passing strange that the member would raise this particular matter when we know full well that his leader has indicated this project is too far along to back out.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Reform Party said the problem is that governments keep getting themselves in deeper and deeper and the sooner we extricate ourselves from these types of mismanaged projects the better.

When is the government going to learn? Hibernia is joining the Bricklin auto plant, the Mirabel airport, and now the Lloydminster upgrader has run out of operating funds. These are all entering the white elephant hall of fame.

What would have been the benefit to Canada's unemployed if the money spent on so-called megaprojects had been directed to deficit reduction, leading to lower taxes and thereby creating real jobs?

When will the government come to its senses and rescue taxpayers from the Hibernia project before it sinks?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, the member makes the comparison with Pearson airport and other projects. These are projects that had not begun, where hundreds of millions, or billions of dollars had not yet been spent, and where 5,300 Canadians are currently employed.

The policy of the Reform Party is, notwithstanding expenditures of billions already under way, to shut down a project and to throw away those billions, to throw away the lives of 5,300 Canadians who are currently employed and to bankrupt hundreds of secondary supply companies currently involved in this project.

Let me complete my answer by quoting Wood Gundy which has done an independent assessment of this project: "We believe that the upside potential from developing Hibernia and the returns that should be generated from the project offset the levels of risk that currently exist".

The assessment went on to compare this project with the Syncrude project of western Canada which now profitably produces approximately 12 per cent of the total Canadian production.

We believe in the west, we believe in the east, we believe in people. We do not abandon Canadians or projects halfway completed in the heartless fashion as proposed by this so-called Reform Party.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I get really concerned when I hear the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans answering a question on megaprojects.

I am trying to bring to the attention of the government the boondoggles it is involved in. I wonder why the Prime Minister is preparing to waste $4.8 million tax dollars on a patronage park in his home riding. It is my understanding that perhaps the feature attraction will be a fantasyland ride called debt mountain.

Why is the Deputy Prime Minister ignoring a federal study which says that just like the failed humour museum in Montreal, the patronage park is also a bad joke?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I get concerned when I hear the leader of the Reform Party claiming to speak on behalf of Quebecers.

From the point of view of the government we are very happy that the minister who is the spokesperson for this project happens to be a minister who is from Newfoundland and who understands how beneficial the Hibernia project can be for not only Newfoundlanders but for those 34 Quebec companies that are receiving $800 million in contracts, those literally millions of other dollars in contracts that are going out across the country.

Frankly, we on this side of the House are not going to apologize for creating jobs for Canadians.

Yesterday for the first time in the House the Reform Party started asking questions about the real issue that touches Canadians, and that is jobs. When the government through the minister responsible for FORD-Q or through the ministers responsible for energy or through the ministers responsible for industry and environment are out there creating jobs we do not expect to take flack from the Reform Party.

[The Speaker]

The only thing the Speaker really gets concerned about is the length of the questions and the length of the

answers. I would ask hon. members to please be as concise as they can.

Situation In Bosnia

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence. Yesterday, during the special debate on the situation in Bosnia, the Minister of Foreign Affairs announced that the government was supporting the United Nations' proposal for air strikes in order to protect the six safe areas designated by the UN in Bosnia following repeated violations of the various ceasefires by Bosnian Serb forces.

Can the Minister of Defence tell us exactly where things stand at this point in Gorazde and indicate if Russia approves of the UN Secretary-General's proposal for air strikes in Bosnia?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as you know the North Atlantic Council has been meeting since nine o'clock Ottawa time. We do not have any results of the discussions. Should I have them before the end of question period, I will perhaps rise at twelve o'clock and make a statement if the House is willing.

With respect to the position of the Russian government, as you know, Mr. Speaker, it has had some reservations on the whole question of broadening air strikes in the former Yugoslav republic of Bosnia. We have no information as of this moment as to whether or not it has changed its position, but it is certainly something that has to be taken into consideration by the council at its meeting this morning.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us what positions Canada took at the NATO summit in Brussels, particularly on the safety of Canadian peacekeepers in Bosnia and could he tell us also what decisions were made at that summit meeting?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we did cover this last night in the debate. The instructions that we gave immediately following the cabinet meeting last night were to endorse the Secretary General's proposal for the Sarajevo type air strikes being widened to include the five safe havens under certain communications and control procedures of the United Nations and with NATO.

Our military people in Brussels will be consulted as to the exact methodology in terms of control to make sure that our objectives have been met.

With respect to the question of the safety of our troops, we did acknowledge yesterday that we have taken some precautions in and around our base in Visoko so that we do not unnecessarily expose our troops to the Bosnian Serb lines. However I should say that this does not mean, contrary to some media reports, that our troops are hunkered down in the base in Visoko. They are performing the humanitarian aid which has resumed into Sarajevo in the last day or so and they are carrying on their work.

Certainly any question of the safety of our troops will be taken in concert with all the members of the United Nations protective force in Bosnia.

Trade

[Jake Hoeppner, Reform, Lisgar—Marquette, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

According to the American trade negotiator, Mickey Kantor, today marks the beginning of a trade war between Canada and the United States. It is obvious that Mr. Kantor has a chip on his shoulder and will not bring an open mind to the negotiating table. In fact Mr. Kantor says he expects a bit of a dust-up.

Mr. Kantor's attitude and comments are clearly unacceptable. One would hope the Prime Minister has already called the American president and demanded him to rein in his loose-lipped negotiator. Can the Deputy Prime Minister tell this House if the Prime Minister has made such a call and if so, what the president's response was?