Mr. Speaker, I will admit that I am not an expert on native affairs, land claim settlements or treaties that were signed years ago. However because I am the only Reform member from Manitoba, and Manitoba being probably a model of self-government for the rest of Canada, I would like to point out a few things that could have some effect on self-government for Manitoba which are
kind of laid down in the guidelines in the Sahtu Dene and Metis bill.
Through the agreement the government, as far as I am concerned, has shirked the wider public interest in dealing with aboriginal land claims. North of 60, which is the Northwest Territories and Yukon, comprises 40 per cent of the land mass of Canada. Ownership up to now has been with the federal government, which should control it in the best interest of all Canadians. It would appear however that the government like the one before it is more concerned with being perceived as politically correct than it is in administering the land in the best interest of all.
The people in this part of the country have seen four major territorial agreements. There have been four massive land claim agreements since 1984. The Inuvialuit agreement covered the western Arctic. The Gwich'in agreement dealt with the Mackenzie River Delta and the Nunavut agreement covered the eastern Arctic. Now we have before us the Sahtu Dene and Metis agreement which covers the Great Bear Lake region. These agreements typically give vast amounts of land to a relatively small number of people. The land settlement agreement to Sahtu Dene and the Metis includes land equal to 28,000 square kilometres or about five times the area of Nova Scotia.
There are, however, only about 1,755 beneficiaries. This works out to approximately 160 square kilometres per person, an area 10 kilometres by 16 kilometres per individual. If you take that into miles it is 6 by 10 miles which is 60 sections per individual, 36 sections in a township. Each individual will receive approximately two townships of property.
These agreements give generous concessions to the recipients, including the constitutionally entrenched rights for aboriginal fishing, trapping and hunting forever. If any outside group wants to use this area in the future for something like forestry or the development of oil and gas it would have to go through several complex layers of regulations including native negotiations. This could seriously deter any potential investors from setting up shop in these areas.
This bill will also provide cash payments of $130 million over 15 years. This works out to approximately $74,000 per person. Also included in this agreement is a percentage of resource royalties from any gas, oil and mineral development. No indication is given as to how much money this would include.
When combined with the agreements that preceded it we have an area of over half a million square kilometres. That is half the size of Ontario and it is granted to a population of 23,800 individuals. These actions have taken this land with its untold resources out of the hands of all Canadians and put it into the hands of a few.
This bill has special significance to me because I am the only Reform member of Parliament from Manitoba. The hon. Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has indicated that Manitoba will be a test case for aboriginal self-government. I am very concerned that this Sahtu Dene and Metis agreement sets a precedent for future Manitoba agreements. Manitoba has a native population of about 84,000, four times the amount that these four agreements include.
I am not sure that this government can define everything that would be included in self-government but to put it in perspective, if the agreement that C-16 deals with is used as a model and the same concessions are eventually given to Manitoba's 84,000 natives, the government would have to agree to land claims of about 13.4 million square kilometres.
Since Manitoba covers about 650,000 square kilometres this is obviously impossible. This would mean that the federal government would have to purchase another 20 Manitobas somewhere to settle the land claims. Maybe this would be a way of selling my farm land which I am told is very valuable, although it is hard to get the money out of it.
Based on the funds that are given under the Sahtu Dene and Metis deal, about $6.2 billion is going to be handed over to the 84,000 Metis. Where will the federal government get that type of money to settle all the land claims? What is the figure eventually going to be for the rest of the native people in Canada?
One week after the Charlottetown accord referendum was defeated a leaked government document indicated that the government had few answers as to what self-government would entail. It had no idea of how much it would cost, where it would get the money or how many aboriginal groups would want to be a part of this.
I am simply not confident that this present government has a better grasp on these matters. Yet, through the Sahtu Dene and Metis agreement the government will enter into a future agreement for self-government.
As I stated, the model for self-government is not clear. Thee is a reference in appendix B of the land claims settlement agreement for local law making on a range of powers that are normally exercised federally or provincially. I would hope that the government could assure Canadians that this does not mean a new legislative law making body would be set up with a new judicial system all for the benefit of fewer than 2,000 people.
As I mentioned, huge questions surround how Manitoba will become a testing ground for aboriginal self-government. The number of acres of land that will be set aside for Manitoba natives and the amount of money involved are two more of the
obvious questions, but there are no answers because they do not make sense in this agreement.
What will the related costs add up to, for example the cost of policing a judicial system? In appendix B of the Sahtu Dene and Metis agreement there is a framework that considers transferring not only administrative responsibilities but also legislative powers. The extent to which this applies in any self-government initiative remains to be determined in future negotiations.
This leads to a number of questions. Would this include a special and separate native police force? Who will be responsible for the hiring and training of such a police force? Who would be responsible for the incredible costs involved?
There is also the question of whether the Charter of Rights and Freedoms would apply to any self-government arrangement negotiated in accordance with this agreement. That is a question that is not answered in this agreement.
A very questionable aspect to this agreement is the additional layer of bureaucracy it creates to administer the land, the water, the resource and the wildlife provisions. Renewable resource councils will be established by each community. A renewable resource board will be created by the government. Sahtu Dene and Metis will make up half the membership on this board. An arbitration panel will be formed to settle disputes relating to this agreement without going to court. A land use planning board and a land and water board will each be set up, with 50 per cent membership for the Sahtu Dene and Metis.
There will also be an environmental impact review board and a surface rights board. Together with an expected act on the Mackenzie Valley resource management, this agreement will give rise to a whole new layer of bureaucracy.
Who will pay the salaries and expenses of the members on this new layer of government? Are we just training the Sahtu Dene and the Metis to become bureaucrats? Currently all of these functions are performed by either the department of Indian and northern affairs or the government of the Northwest Territories. I see no commitment to phase out these current boards. I wonder if they will continue to exist even though their jobs have been taken over by someone else.
The department of Indian affairs has a budget of about $5 billion and has a staff of 3,400 people. In this year's estimates salaries and contributions to employee plans amount to $134.4 million. This works out to an average salary of approximately $40,000. Will this department with a huge budget and a large staff continue to exist as we set up another bureaucracy?
This land of course will have roads, bridges and similar infrastructure that will have to be built and maintained. Presumably this will be the responsibility of the new native administration. Will it still be federal funds that will be applied for?
I think it is worth mentioning that health care under this agreement will remain unchanged. It will still be administered by the federal government. As I can expect that self-government will be introduced into Manitoba, this is of concern to my constituents. In the report to the Manitoba standing committee on medical manpower concerning the year 1991-92, I learned that the total health care service expenditure per capita for natives was much higher than for the rest of the province. In my own area of the province, which includes Morden and Steinbach, the average cost was about $140 per person. In Winnipeg it was about $200 per person. The Manitoba average was $185 but on the southern native reserve it was $260 per person. One doctor told me that half the people on the native reserve are afflicted with diabetes-how sad. It is of real concern to the other people in that area that these problems get corrected and how that will be accomplished.
It is similar when we look at the average expenditure for each hospital visit. For towns like Winkler and Steinbach the cost was about $23 per visit which was about the same as the Winnipeg and Manitoba average, but for the reserve natives, the average cost was $50, more than twice as much.
Clearly this indicates that there are special health care requirements for Manitoba's native population. It is a social issue because we should be looking at ways to improve their overall health but it is also a financial issue and I think it is important to realize that these costs will remain after these land claims are settled.
Will there be any provision under self-government for natives to assume their own health care or will they depend on the federal system forever?
The government has also announced its commitment to continue the northern food mail program which I think is a very important program. This program will cost about $14.1 million in 1994-95. I think it is important for Canadians to realize that these programs continue even after these agreements have been achieved. The Canadian taxpayer's responsibility to fund these programs does not disappear just because natives are being given new land rights and more control over their affairs.
I wonder when the time comes for self-government in Manitoba what the government will do in the way of initiatives to improve the health of this segment of the population. I hope it will not ignore the problem and just agree to another wholesale giveaway of land and resources as it has done in the Sahtu Dene and Metis agreement.
I think it is very important that we realize that not just the Metis and the native people but the white are responsible to correct some of these problems and they have to be dealt with and there have to be funds for it. Huge land claims will not deal with these health problems.
In closing, I hope I have served to air some concerns and raise some very important questions regarding Bill C-16. The implications are very far reaching and it is very troubling that some of the more important questions seem to be without answers.
As a Manitoba member of Parliament I hope that when the time comes for any self-government or land claim agreement in my own province it is more well thought out than this one is. The current concept of self-government is so ill-defined and open minded there are serious implications to everyone involved, not the least of whom is the Canadian taxpayer.
A large percentage of native bands in Manitoba are millions of dollars in debt because of mismanagement and corruption. By moving toward self-government are we going to clear ourselves out of this indescribable mess created by Indian and Northern Affairs, or will it simply make the situation worse?