Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. member for Beaver River. She speaks with thoughtfulness. She is always interesting and she is good humoured. I hope to enter the debate with those same qualities.
It is an interesting question. I think we are all interested in participatory democracy. It was, after all, Pierre Trudeau who coined the term. This Parliament is marked by a feeling that transcends all parties to change the system to get more direct involvement by people, more participation by members.
It should be understood, though, that we operate within the context of two different antinomies or sometimes conflicting principles of liberal constitutionalism today in western societies and western influenced societies. One is the concept of government by assembly, which is returning power to Parliament after more than half a century in most western societies of executive dominated regimes.
The other is direct democracy, getting people involved in decision making in its logical conclusion or what my friend, Professor Mirkine-Guetzévitch, called plebiscitarian democracy. Sometimes those two trends run counter to each other. Without anticipating the work of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, the committee of the House of Commons now studying these issues including the institution of recall, I would refer to some changes that are already apparent.
The office of prime ministership is in the process of change. It is always true that the office depends on the man or woman in it. The prime ministership was different under Mr. Churchill from that under his successor, Mr. Attlee, or under Margaret Thatcher
and her successor whose name is often forgotten. The same is happening in Canada.
The Chrétien model of the prime ministership is a very kinder and gentler Prime Minister who rests on collegiality, consensus and a heightened respect for Parliament. Some would say after the last eight years that was very much needed. It is the Pearson model and it is changing Parliament interestingly and constructively.
There is also a heightened sensitiveness among individual members of their responsibilities to their constituents and getting their opinions and, by the way, no particular fear of referenda as such.
I happen to think referenda are fully part of democratic constitutionalism. The Quebec referendum of 1980 was healthy. It cleared the air. The Charlottetown referendum was healthy. I never accepted the view of the prophets of gloom and doom that the country might come to an end as a result of that referendum. The decision has been accepted loyally and with goodwill by all concerned and we are now on to the economic business of the country.
Referenda should not of course be used as an instrument to harass governments or to preoccupy the public agenda. I would warn that there are constitutional limits. If referenda proposals are deliberately ambiguous and confusing or they are repetitive, repeated every year, there are ample constitutional means for controlling them through the Supreme Court. Maybe at some future stage some people, including myself, may have to return to that issue.
Let us get on to recall, the institution as such which the hon. member raised with such ardour and such persuasiveness. It is in many respects antithetical to the main liberalizing constitutional element I have already referred to: government by assembly giving more powers to members of Parliament, not merely opposition but government members, getting away from this presidentialized prime ministership we see in so many British influenced societies.
I would have to raise some questions to the hon. member. I have lived in Switzerland as part of my professional life. I have a great admiration for the Swiss system. However I am always reminded of the particularity of constitutional institutions in their own society and the difficulties in translating an institution from one society to another, unless the basic societal and cultural conditions in the one are sufficiently replicated in the other. It is one thing to have recall in a Swiss canton where everybody knows everybody. I knew all my neighbours; I knew everybody in my canton, I think.
Try translating recall to a constituency. Not even speaking of the hon. member for Ontario's seat which has 220,000 voters, but a seat like my own of 100,000, how do you prove 50,000 or 40,000 signatures on a recall petition? It does not even take a good lawyer to tie an issue like that up in the courts for 17 years requiring everybody to prove their signatures.
I can foresee very great difficulties, endless litigation and expense in carrying this proposal out if it were to be adopted. I wonder if the liberalizing thoughts of the hon. member might not be better directed to other institutions of participatory democracy which I think are already receiving some early favour with the standing committee.
There are more effective ways for Parliament itself to control its own procedures and to ensure dignity and mutual respect among its members. It must never be forgotten that Parliament is a high court of Parliament. It is a vestigial judicial institution too. It has enormous disciplinary powers which are sometimes forgotten. It has the power to scrutinize its own MPs.
There are constitutional limits to this and political dangers. As an academic commentator I warned during the U.S. impeachment debate about confusing legal grounds for impeachment with political grounds for impeachment. That is to take us back to the bad days of the 18th century instead of the golden days of the 17th century in which constitutionalism in England was more vibrant. One is also reminded of the last days of the Weimar republic when majorities used their power to exclude minority members.
Nevertheless, this having been said the standing committee would do well to re-examine Parliament's power itself to discipline its members. It could look at these issues for taking care of some of the pathological examples the hon. member cited where recall in the absence of other more effective mechanisms might be the constitutional instrument to look to.
I would ask the hon. member if she could put her proposals in the context of a larger constitutional vision which includes a revived Parliament where members do have something to do, where the executive exercises modesty and self-restraint in relation to opposition members and government members.
There are changes here that we are on the verge of making. We have a sympathetic Prime Minister. I cite again the example of Mr. Pearson. He and his great colleague, Paul Martin, Sr., were great parliamentarians. This can be a House that will literally reform itself.
Contributions such as the hon. member opposite has made are constructive and helpful. They start the debate. They are the raw material for the overburdened standing committee with a strange double barrelled name. Nobody dares use the word constitution but let us face it, it is a constitutional committee that we have in Parliament, the Standing Committee on House Management and Procedures, and it can act.
Her contributions will add to the debate and I do believe she will see results, perhaps not the particular institution she is advocating. It does need more thought on the modalities, how to get it through, how to overcome those battalions of lawyers who will descend and those 17 years delays but it can be done.