Debates of June 17th, 1994

The Reform Party

[The Speaker]

That is close enough.

[Len Taylor, NDP, The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK]

Yes it is. We are neighbours.

Transport

[Len Taylor, NDP, The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of Transport should resign. In recent days he has demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the western grain economy and in doing so he has completely ignored the history of the transportation debate which time and time again has proven the support for the Crow benefit among the people it most affects.

In a country as large and diverse as Canada our government should be looking at developing a national transportation policy that supports and not penalizes those who depend on transportation for their livelihood.

If the minister wants to stay in transport then he should be thinking about ways in which his department can help those who depend most upon it. If the minister will not review and renounce his position on eliminating the Crow benefit then he should step aside and let someone who knows western Canada and cares about transportation take over.

Interprovincial Trade

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. The latest information on the status of intergovernmental negotiations to eliminate interprovincial trade barriers points to mediocre results. Yet, on May 6, Canadian Press reported that an agreement was imminent and even that a nearly complete draft agreement would be given to the provincial trade ministers at their meeting in Winnipeg on May 9 and 10.

My question to the Prime Minister is this: Can he tell us if the June 30 deadline set by his government to reach an agreement is still valid and if the agreement, if there is one, will really eliminate interprovincial trade barriers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are quite confident that an agreement will be reached by June 30 and that it will be substantial.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister not realize that, given the serious reservations expressed by several provinces and by Quebec, the agreement announced by the federal government may be timid and full of major exemptions and amount in essence to an empty shell?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are consulting the provinces. They have their jurisdiction, we have ours and we are working toward an agreement that will satisfy all the parties involved. We strongly favour the elimination of as many interprovincial trade barriers as possible in Canada. Some provincial governments are reluctant, however, and I am surprised that the hon. member from the Bloc Quebecois is blaming the Liberal government for being too nice to the provinces.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given, one, that the forum on health has been postponed indefinitely; two, that the Minister of Human Resources Development is going it alone by trying high-handedly to impose a reform of social programs on the provinces; and three, that the so-called agreement on the elimination of interprovincial trade barriers may worsen interprovincial relations instead of improving them, does the Prime Minister not realize that, after three months, his government's record on federal-provincial relations is a dismal failure?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am very surprised by the question because in matters of trade, we have our federal jurisdiction. We could impose things, but we do not want to do so. The Constitution clearly states that it is a federal responsibility. While we want to respect the provinces'

opinions, those who favour the status quo in Canada do not want anything to change.

If the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe tells me that I must use federal powers, we can settle this in two minutes. However, I am so nice that the hon. member criticizes the federal Prime Minister for consulting too much. Now that is a switch!

Social Program Reform

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, newspapers are reporting this morning that in a report which is now before Cabinet, the human resources minister's panel of experts on social program reform has recommended that further cuts of up to $6 billion be made to the unemployment insurance program, which would result in over 500,000 claimants being disentitled.

Will the Minister of Human Resources Development commit now to rejecting out of hand this despicable recommendation aimed once again at reducing the federal deficit at the expense of the unemployed and the most disadvantaged among us?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I said yesterday that such reports are purely hypothetical and speculative. I do not pay any attention to them. I would advise the hon. member not to pay any attention to them either.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we to understand from the minister's answer that the only way to reduce unemployment is to force people onto welfare?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

No, Mr. Speaker.

Indian Affairs

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of Indian affairs.

Recently the minister has been travelling across this country telling aboriginal communities if they want self-government to step up and sign on the dotted line. Our party believes there are many serious issues that the government is not addressing in this kamikaze approach to self-government.

Will the minister stop his headlong rush into these deals and ensure that no more deals are signed until full consultation with all concerned citizens takes place and a detailed cost accounting of each deal is disclosed?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is a very broad question with no focus but I am prepared to answer it in this way.

I am as concerned as the hon. member about costs and accountability. I am prepared to work with the Reform Party to that end.

If holding our committee until 6 a.m. this morning for no useful purpose is any indication of the way the hon. member wants to go, I am not with him.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question.

The fact that this government believes that cabinet should be the dispute settling mechanism in these deals indicates to me that it is only interested in maintaining the current paternalistic system that now exists.

Will the minister remove the political and partisan interference from self-government agreements and establish an autonomous body to deal with the dispute settlements?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, again it is a matter of different approaches and different philosophies. We are working with the aboriginal people.

I might remind the hon. member that our techniques vary in this way. The first question you asked in this House had 58 words in it and eight were derogatory. Eight were derogatory about the very people you purport to be defending today.

[The Speaker]

I would remind all hon. members that both questions and answers should be directed to the Chair.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a further supplementary question. It was a very interesting response. If this minister really had any sense of responsibility, he would have appeared before the committee to defend his own legislation.

We heard from witnesses who had real concerns with this deal. The minister had the arrogance to ignore these concerns. If the minister will not defend his legislation, will he defend the complete abdication of his responsibility and his apparent disdain for the democratic process? What does he have to say-

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I would encourage all hon. members when they are putting questions if they would put the questions. I think we are getting into a great deal of editorializing, if you will.

That is not particularly helpful to the debate or the questions and answers on either side. I intervened before. I heard the hon. member putting a question, and so would he put the question now.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question was what does he have to say to Canadians who have concerns about his self-government legislation?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, when I inherited the Yukon legislation in the form it was in I took the time to go to Yukon and spend three days negotiating with the Yukon people. When I say Yukon people, I mean the Chamber of Commerce, the mayors, the First Nations and the legislature.

When the CYI came to Ottawa for a week and a half, it tried to set up a meeting with these hon. members. They would not even meet with it. That is our dialogue with the people. That is this party's dialogue with the people.

Ethics

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Prime Minister unveiled his government's action plan to take, as he put it, "unprecedented action to open up the process of government in Ottawa". In his statement, the Prime Minister said, and I quote: "Deals like the Pearson Airport deal must never be allowed to happen again".

Since the Prime Minister claims to mean business when he talks about restoring integrity in the federal administration, how does he explain his government's refusal to give to the ethics counsellor the mandate to investigate the role of lobbyists in the Pearson Airport scandal?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as regards the Toronto Airport issue, we did what was our duty and what we said we would do: We cancelled the contract. What else can we do? The ethics counsellor has the necessary power to conduct any inquiry which he deems appropriate.

This is a new Parliament and, unless I am mistaken, the legislation provides no compensation for those who paid lobbyists regarding the Pearson Airport contract. Mr. Nixon conducted an investigation and reported his findings within 30 days, which was faster than anything we had seen before. A decision was made. The contract was cancelled, period. The ethics counsellor will fulfill his mandate in compliance with the provisions of the act, which go a lot farther than what was unanimously recommended by the committee last year.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Prime Minister to read the bill thoroughly. Compensation can be made with Cabinet approval.

Since yesterday's statement was silent on this issue, does the Prime Minister intend to follow up on the Minister of Transport's suggestion to no longer allow lobbyists fees as a tax deduction, a measure which the American government intends to take?