House of Commons Hansard #77 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was regions.

Topics

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4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Tremblay Bloc Rosemont, QC

Madam Speaker, I want first to thank the member for Halifax for her efforts to speak French.

[Translation]

I know that the member has a lot of experience in this House. When she was in the opposition, I heard her talking about the Atlantic development agency. Besides, I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry, Science and Technology when the act on that department was voted on, and I remember there were a lot of criticism of what was done.

The government has now been in power for six months. Today, in order to justify the work done by her government, the parliamentary secretary gives us a list of businesses which received grants, obviously before her government came into office.

However, I am happy to see that she thinks that having a regional development agency for Atlantic Canada is a good decision taken by the Conservatives because Canada is becoming more and more a country of economic regions where the market trends are more and more south-north and north-south than east-west.

However, I have to admit that nothing was said about Hibernia. This is incredible. If we were to put in the bank all the money spent on Hibernia, we would have enough money for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency for the next 100 years. We would get hundreds of millions each year in interest alone on the money we are going to waste. What is the government doing? Nothing. We are wasting billions of dollars for something which has no viable future. It is unbelievable.

The parliamentary secretary is telling us about duplication and overlapping. She should thank Quebec for putting this on the agenda and making it a major issue. Clearly, in the years to come we will be less and less able to afford duplication and overlapping between the federal and provincial governments.

Those who wish to stay within Canada can try to come to an agreement with the federal government to limit duplication. However, when we talk about harmonizing it means that someone has decided to harmonize as he or she sees fit. That is exactly what the federal government is doing with respect to manpower despite the fact that, in Quebec, all stakeholders have agreed that Quebec should be responsible for manpower training.

However, the federal government has been refusing for years. We are promised agreement after agreement, but nothing ever comes about. What the government is seeking is not harmonization but centralization. Yet, we know that in order to have endogenous development in the regions they need resources. They need to have, locally, the right, the power, and the capacity to undertake projects without the federal big brother who thinks he can always do better than anyone else. This is the problem in this country.

If the Liberal point of view had a purpose, with the huge amount of money invested in the Maritimes, this would be heaven on earth. The role of the federal government in regional development has a purpose.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Absolutely.

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4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Tremblay Bloc Rosemont, QC

Maybe. The parliamentary secretary thinks Atlantic Canada is heaven on earth; maybe for her it is, but for the thousands of unemployed, for example those who have to move, it is certainly not a paradise. There is considerable work to be done and we think people can do better locally than whatever the civil servants could do here in Ottawa.

We also think that Fisheries and Oceans officials would be better off in Newfoundland than in Ottawa. Of course the federal government always thinks it can do better.

There is another very important point the parliamentary secretary forgot in her speech and it concerns the regional economy of the Atlantic region and Montreal. What is the government planning to do for the conversion? It certainly has a role to play in this issue since it was the one to give out the contracts. We all know that defence programs will decrease in importance because the government is getting out. Therefore, we must make sure that conversion programs from military to civilian use are implemented. We have been fighting for weeks here in the House for such measures. There even was an opposition day on that issue. The military economy is still important today; companies producing military equipment are very important in the Atlantic region. But the speech says nothing about that.

They refer to successful projects, projects that produced good results during the Tory mandate and they say: "Look at these achievements; that is what the Liberals want to do". Meanwhile, they continue to forget the true role of the federal government in the conversion of military industries into civilian ones. That is the government's responsibility; the American government accomplished that very well by the way.

So if we want regional development in the Atlantic region, we must let the local people decide for themselves. We must stop spending billions of our taxpayers' money on stupid projects like Hibernia and we must immediately implement a conversion program for military industries.

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4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I would like to remind members that this is a question and comment period; we are not on debate.

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4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Tremblay Bloc Rosemont, QC

This was a comment, Madam Speaker.

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4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

If I may say so, it was a very lengthy comment.

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4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, the member's comments are not causing me any problem; I accept them at face value.

I would like to say a couple of things. First, if the hon. member would like to have a debate on the principles and the reasons for the setting up of Hibernia I suggest that he bring it forward. I would be delighted to debate him on that topic at any time.

However, I came today to talk about regional development in general, and ACOA being the vehicle for that that was the reason that I decided to use ACOA. I understand that the hon. members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition are not perhaps aware of what really happens in Atlantic Canada. As an Atlantic Canadian member of Parliament it is my duty to make them aware of it.

I believe that Atlantic Canada is a heaven on earth due to long time Liberal policies. To make it a true heaven on earth, it would perhaps be wise if some people would stop trying to rip the heart out of my country.

To get back to the point I made before to the hon. member, I am glad that he remembers his previous role in a government which pursued, I might add, a scorched earth policy in Atlantic Canada. Those days are over. It is unusual for members of le Bloc to remember that their birth came from the Progressive Conservative government that did such damage in Atlantic Canada. I think it is quite honest and shows a level of integrity in the hon. member that he admits his role in that pernicious government with its pernicious policies and that he is obviously prepared to seek some sort of absolution from those of us in Atlantic Canada.

He is not going to get it. He certainly is not going to get it from me. What he is going to get is good policy, job creation and a belief in every region of this Canada; Atlantic Canada, Quebec, Ontario, the prairies, the west and the north. One country united, indivisible. As I have said the heart in the province of Quebec remains strong.

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4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

One short question from the hon. member for Vegreville.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

Madam Speaker, does that mean that I cannot ask all three of them?

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4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry. That is the unfortunate part about long comments.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

I will make the question very brief to the hon. parliamentary secretary.

First, have the billions and billions of dollars spent on programs for regional development in the maritimes and the dozens of programs helped the maritimes to the extent that they are equal with other provinces in Canada in terms of their economy?

The second is a comment made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry earlier that Alberta and B.C. had given over $100 billion more than they had received from the coffers into the federal government coffers. In fact the figure should be between $100 and $160 billion in Alberta. Does the member think that Albertans are willing to give more?

Finally, I would like a response to this very brief quote: "A reliance on granterpreneurship as opposed to entrepreneurship has fostered artificial local competition and created distortions in local markets".

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4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry, I would like to give the hon. member a few seconds to respond.

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's question. I would although ask him to use words that I am familiar with in either of the two official languages.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

They are from the red book.

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

There is no such word as granterpreneurship.

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4:20 p.m.

Reform

Leon Benoit Reform Vegreville, AB

That quote is from your red book.

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4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, do something about him, will you. I did not think I was going to have to come here and give lessons in history but obviously the Reform Party needs it. If he wants to know about the history of this country and what Atlantic Canadians have given in dollars he might talk to his pal across the aisle who did have a history in Atlantic Canada.

He might want to know for example when I brought it up to his friend from the Kootenays earlier today that for over 20 years Atlantic Canadians paid an extra $5 over world price on every barrel of their oil to go directly, my learned friend, into the coffers of the Alberta government to build the oil industry in Alberta.

Nova Scotians, New Brunswickers, P.E. Islanders and Newfoundlanders after their entry into Confederation did it with joy because we are one country. We believe in transfer payments. We believe in equalization payments and we are going to do it whether the hon. member likes it or not.

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4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Madam Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I take part in the debate on regional development. I really appreciate today's motion by my friend and colleague from Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup. I must remind you that regional development is first and foremost a regional responsibility. In my riding of eastern Quebec, as elsewhere in Quebec and in Canada, people know their territory and its resources and how to develop them. Very often, they need only a little bit of money and the support of the local government.

However, yesterday, in preparation for this debate, my staff contacted various spokespersons in my riding. They all said the same thing: "The region has its resources and governments, rather than listening to us in order to help us develop them, do what they please and more often than not fight it out among themselves at our expense obviously". Other people have denounced the attitude of the federal government which not only encroaches on areas of provincial jurisdiction, but also often takes initiatives diametrically opposed to the will of the local and provincial governments.

However, with an unemployment rate of 27.3 per cent in the Gaspé Peninsula and of 17.6 per cent in the Lower St. Lawrence district, efficiency is now a must. In my riding, for example, we have ideas on how to create jobs by using our natural resources like the forest, agriculture or manufacturing resources. We have projects for processing plants, and so forth.

Moreover, very often, the federal government has shown in the last few years its total lack of understanding of the regions' needs. On December 5, 1990, the president and CEO of the CBC, Gérard Veilleux, announced the closing of the CJBRT station in Rimouski, CBGAT in Matane, CBST in Sept-Îles, for a total of about 150 jobs in eastern Quebec and lost wages of almost two million. Not only did we see families leave the area and the regional economy lose these two million-and this is a very large sum for a region such as eastern Quebec-but our shopkeepers, our community lost at the same time a very important means of communication. Now, to hear about the eastern part of Quebec on CBC television broadcast from Quebec city, we must be on the lookout since it is often sandwiched between news concerning Quebec's mayor and his disputes with the mayor of Sainte-Foy on the program "Ce soir". Sometimes there is something about the eastern part of Quebec.

Let us not forget also the bad federal decisions made by the Trudeau government which seem to have benefited the Maritimes. There was a bad decision about Mirabel and another one, taken by the minister of the day, member for Matane, about the Maurice Lamontagne Institute, which was located in Sainte-Flavie when it should have been in Pointe-au-Père. An $18 million wharf was constructed, but no ship ever drew alongside it since there is nothing to protect those that would. In the meantime, the wharf at Pointe-au-Père is rotted out but we do not have the million dollars needed to pull it down, even though it is a public hazard.

The CBC pulled $46 million out of the regions when it closed 11 regional stations across Canada. I remind members that that restructuration cost quite a few million dollars, more exactly $138.5 million, not to mention the fact that the CBC's deficit is far from under control.

Our regions remember this episode vividly, especially the fact that the first thought of the management of the CBC was to cut regional services. This set an example that was repeated many times over.

Another significant example of the lack of respect paid to regions was the closing of post offices. Imagine the contempt of Quebecers or rural Canadians whose post offices are being closed, despite their very important role in the community. The current government has indeed declared a moratorium on post office closures, but it has not committed itself to reopening the post offices which were closed by its predecessor, and people in my riding who were contacted by my office yesterday and who are working on this issue are not at all sure that the post offices will remain open once the moratorium is lifted. On the contrary, some have told us that Canada Post's current lobby would ultimately succeed.

VIA Rail is another example. The government boasts about its infrastructure program, but at the same time, it keeps dismantling other important infrastructures such as VIA Rail when we all know how railways, in regions like ours, do make a vital contribution to the Eastern Quebec economy.

Another example of this government's sensitivity is the National Film Board's decision to close its regional offices. The Carrousel du film, a major festival in the area of audio-visual production for children and the only one of its kind in America, has also been targeted for severe budget cuts. Telefilm, which must reduce its funding of various programs because of cuts imposed by the government, has decided to focus more on large festivals, or those held in big cities. The Carrousel du film, which is a regional festival, will therefore be subjected to cuts. This internationally recognized festival promotes productions for children, a key sector which meets the objectives of acquainting children with quality movies. But, here again, our unfeeling government did not hesitate to make cuts.

Those are only a few examples of what the implementation of so-called national policies leads to. Such policies are dreamed up in a city by city-dwelling bureaucrats and civil servants who do not have the slightest idea of the concerns of people in remote areas.

The first consequence of the deplorable failure of federalism in the remote areas of Quebec is the exodus of adults and young people alike. If you refer to a publication of the Rimouski community health department, called Optique Santé , you will find some fascinating information. The 1991 census shows that the Quebec population has increased by 5.6 per cent, whereas the Lower St. Lawrence is loosing its population and shows a net loss of 2.7 per cent.

This overall drop in the Lower St. Lawrence population is due to a negative balance of migration. Such emigration is one of the main causes of the aging of these communities since it is the most mobile inhabitants who leave, namely the young people and the adults. In short, the failure of the federal regional development policy has had a severe impact on the demographic decline of the Lower St. Lawrence. People in that area will speak loud and clear during the upcoming election and referendum.

This morning, our ability to read was questioned so, to conclude, I would like to quote from John Naisbitt's book entitled Global Paradox . According to the jacket blurb, he is supposed to be quite a genius.

"In the hallmark of genius is simplicity that Naisbitt has brilliantly presented a work which reasonably addresses the challenges of the future while providing the chart for successful navigation".

I will now quote the author.

The breakup of countries (artificially put together) into national or tribal entities is surely as beneficial as the breakup of companies. It eliminates duplication and waste, reduces bureaucracy and promotes motivation and accountability, and results in self-rule (subsidiary) at the most basic level-just like in companies.

This is what the Chilean Minister of Finance has to say about him:

"John Naisbitt's new book is visionary. His predictions will be, as they have been before, right on target".

Quebec's objective is quite laudable. English Canada has not yet understood that we have had enough of not having the necessary resources to fully develop our potential. So Atlantic Canada is a paradise on earth, let it keep on developing! So western Canada has all it needs for its development! Ontario, where most of this government comes from, is still not understanding what is going on in the rest of Canada. But nothing will deter us from our one and only goal: Quebec sovereignty.

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4:30 p.m.

Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine Québec

Liberal

Patrick Gagnon LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General

Madam Speaker, I found the speech of the hon. member for Rimouski-Témiscouata very interesting. However, she did not mention the private sector. She only mentioned the CBC, VIA Rail, the Film Festival, the NFB. She did not talk about private enterprises, but she mentioned one author, someone who argues that the state should be managed like a private company. We have seen the results with the Conservatives and some members of the Bloc. If she really wants to talk about job creation, she should give us some examples in the private sector.

I must also point out that the Federal Office of Regional Development is precisely located in the beautiful city of Rimouski. I believe that the hon. member will have the opportunity to talk with these people and to set up a real program of economic development instead of complaining to her colleagues, here in the House.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

I met the director of the Federal Office of Regional Development in my riding. He told me that the cupboard was bare. I do not mind talking in this House, but when I am told that there are only $2 million left for the Lower St. Lawrence, the Gaspé Peninsula and the Magdalen Islands, I say that the cupboard is bare.

We are told about the development of small and medium-sized enterprises, but I am still waiting for the list of those created since this government took office. There are no business opportunities to talk about in my riding. All I have, daily, are people joining the ranks of those on unemployment insurance or welfare. There are no businesses developing.

Of course, the restaurant La Cage aux sports will open on June 15, but I do not call that an extraordinary economic development of the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé Peninsula. Sure, this will be on more establishment, but this will only divide the profits. There are plenty of restaurants in my riding, so the opening of this one will cause another to close or will divide the profits. People are moving out, because there are no jobs. We are waiting for jobs, Mr. Parliamentary Secretary.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I would like to remind the hon. members that comments must also be addressed to the Chair.

As you only have about one minute left, I will give the floor to hon. member for Durham.

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Liberal Durham, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask a couple of questions of the hon. member.

First, she talked about post office closures. She and some other members talked today about the reductions in UI benefits and so forth as some kind of a failure of our federal system. At the same time she complained about the deficit. Her party complains about the deficit, that this is a tax on the backs of the people of Quebec.

I wonder how you can have it both ways. How can we try to control the deficit by some of these manoeuvres and at the same time be blamed for not dealing with the deficit problems. I find this a terrible inconsistency in their philosophy.

Second, I would like to pick up on one of their other members, the member for Abitibi, who talked about the empowerment of some of the local regional municipalities. Would she support a philosophy that paid regional transfer payments and rather than sending them to the province of Quebec actually sent them to the regional municipalities in Quebec.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry to interrupt you. Your question should be directed to the previous speaker.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC

Madam Speaker, the question takes me by surprise because my remarks had nothing to do with what the hon. member is talking about. There was no mention of deficit reduction in my remarks. This point has been made to another hon. member earlier, but as far as I am concerned, I never raised the issue.

Deficit reduction is the least of my worries. My main concern at this time is to ensure that people are afforded the dignity of getting up in the morning, facing themselves in the mirror and setting off to got to work, instead of getting depressed because they have nothing to eat or no job. What we need, Madam Speaker, is jobs. This government crows about jobs, but does not create any. It produces fine speeches, but no jobs. What I want is job creation.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Madam Speaker, as member representing Lévis and the Quebec region, I am pleased to participate in this special debate on regional development initiated by the Official Opposition.

I think it may be useful at this stage of the debate to read again the motion before us, which was put forward by the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup. It reads as follows:

That this House condemn the federal government's ineffective regional development interventions, which create overlappings and inconsistencies, resulting in an administrative chaos that hampers regional economic growth.

Madam Speaker, the members of the current federal government rack their brains only to recall the good shots of the previous Liberal government in terms of regional development.

Some members like the hon. member for Broadview-Greenwood-he is from Ontario-even got the feeling that Quebec was living off the federal government, that it owed its very survival to the federal government's support. I could quote other comments, but my point is the following: if Quebec costs so much in terms of unemployment insurance, social assistance, regional assistance and so on, what is the point of insisting, as this government does, on Quebec remaining a part of this Confederation? One wonders.

Figures speak louder than feelings. Therefore, I would like to recall a few. Between 1989 and 1994, according to the figures from the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec, the Atlantic provinces received $920 per person for regional development; Western Canada, $240; and Quebec, $230, which is less than Western Canada and much less than the Maritimes. The hon. member said that Quebec seemed to be the main beneficiary of regional development but, as we can see, Western Canada and the Maritimes received four times as much. Ontario receives $30 per resident but-as everyone recognizes and I think Ontarians must recognize it, too-Ontario is the main beneficiary of the federalist system.

Why? First of all, the presence of the public service, as well as all the money spent on AECL, on the Toronto Airport, over the years. There is also the defence industry. While Quebec was getting subsidies for small business, for bicycles in the Beauce region, Ontario's auto industry was doing very well and the military tank industry, even better.

The hon. member for Bonaventure said something earlier about how impressive business subsidies are. I did some calculations and in the provincial riding of Lévis, which is split in two at the provincial level, in what is called the regional county municipality of Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, which is my local economic development corporation, they estimated the impact of federal funds on the economic development of this riding at less than 1 per cent. One per cent of the regional economy comes from the federal government. They then try to convince us that Quebec would not have been able to develop its regions without the federal government's help. This disproportion is unacceptable.

Beyond figures-we could argue over figures for a long time-what is Quebec organizations' main complaint against the federal government's actions? I am not talking about the Bloc Quebecois but about the claims made by organizations in books and forums. They say that, basically, the main shortcoming of the federal government is that it does not hold enough consultations with the regional organizations already in place. Federal departments do not even hold enough consultations among themselves before taking action, so that most of the time the action only involves one sector.

I will give you an example. In the rail industry, they say it is expensive to maintain CN services but they do not consider the impact this will have on Quebec roads.

Let me give you an example. At certain times, a passenger train represents the equivalent of 17,000 automobiles on the road. These are the figures of the Quebec Department of Transport. When the idea is entertained of abandoning certain lines such as the Murray Bay line in the Charlevoix region and a number of other lines leading to the Beauce region, no consideration is given to the impact this could have on road infrastructures. This is what I mean by short-sighted sectoral intervention.

Another problem is maps. Federal government department maps do not jibe with one another, or for that matter, with provincial or regional municipality maps.

Apparently that is the case. Another area which we hear a great deal about but about which little is written is the Youth Service Corps. The member for Bonaventure has given me a striking illustration of the problem. While in Winnipeg, the minister announced the creation of four pilot projects, each with a budget of $100,000. However, one of the four projects was given a budget of $600,000. In which riding did this pilot project happen to be? Surprise, the member for Bonaventure's riding. That is what was announced in the minister's press release issued in Winnipeg. Check it out for yourselves.

Moving on, I would like to speak a little about the Quebec City area which, on a provincial level, is divided into two major regions, the combined population of which exceeds 900,000. Until now, the tertiary sector has been front and centre.

Allow me to quickly mention one case, that of MIL Davie. Here is an extraordinary opportunity for the federal government to intervene in the field of regional development. Before the Liberal Party came to power, this sector represented $150 million in wages. It also represented $600 million in economic spin-offs for the Quebec City area. The region has been waiting for six months for a decision on the awarding of transitional contracts for the Magdalen Islands ferry and for the smart ship.

Another important issue, apart from rail transportation which I have already mentioned, is the Quebec City airport. We have been waiting for years for action in this area. When the Conservatives were in office, they had a small sign erected proclaiming this facility to be Jean Lesage International Airport. However, the only thing that is international about this bush-league airport is the wording on its sign.

As for the municipal convention centre, the project got going only very recently. It took years! The communications problem raised by the hon. member for Rimouski also affects us, because the resources we had before which were exclusive to the Quebec City area must now be shared with the regions in eastern Quebec and the North Shore.

There is also the problem of the Port of Quebec. It is experiencing a tremendous decline. Why? Because goods are now shipped west, and their transportation is subsidized. Just reread the agreement on Crow's Nest subsidies. Yes, I know that was when the Conservatives were in power, but it still goes on.

There are the ports of refuge. The same thing goes in Saint-Jean-Port-Joli and in Portneuf: the federal government does not even maintain its own equipment and it has become dangerous to go near it.

I would like to conclude by saying that the urban region of Quebec City has not done too badly, in the end, but the problem we see in the outlying regions of Bellechasse, Portneuf and Charlevoix is the same as in the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé Peninsula. But there are also large areas of poverty even in downtown Quebec, to which I think the Liberal government has so far shown great indifference.