Debates of Oct. 17th, 1995

Francophone Communities

[An hon. member]

That is blackmail.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

It is not blackmail. There will be only one million francophones outside Quebec who will no longer have the support of francophone members from Quebec, like me and others who have spent their careers defending francophones outside Quebec here in the House of Commons. I have been doing that for 32 years. It produced results. But they want to abandon them because they want ambassadors from Quebec driving around abroad in their limos.

Cfb Chilliwack

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in the February budget the defence minister announced the closure of CFB Chilliwack, the only land force base in British Columbia. Yet in a memo marked secret and prepared for DND just prior to that announcement, land forces command made the following observations: "Land forces command requires an army base to support the domestic operations in B.C. LFC feels Chilliwack is ideally suited to fulfil those operations. The closure of CFB Chilliwack should be opposed and CFB Chilliwack should be retained".

Why did the minister ignore the advice of his own officials and choose to close B.C.'s only land forces base, CFB Chilliwack?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, I accepted the advice of my officials. It was the department that recommended the consolidation of the army base in Edmonton with the closures of Chilliwack and Calgary.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in another memo obtained under the Access to Information Act, Brigadier General Stephenson, director general of land forces development, questions whether there will be any savings by closing the base. Colonel Daigle of land forces command says that the cost of moving the engineering school for example will negate the savings achieved by closing CFB Chilliwack.

If land forces command argued it needed the base open for military reasons and the experts said that closing the base was not going to save any money, did the minister close the base because of mismanagement or did he merely choose to move it to Edmonton because his Liberal seatmates live there?

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would ask you to please consider not to impute motive in any sense. The first part of the question I would say is in order. The second part is not in order. If the hon. minister would like to answer the first part, I would give him that option.

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, again the hon. members opposite read selectively from documentation. They did not look at the full range of advice that was provided to the deputy minister and to the chief of defence staff. The fact is the savings generated by the closing of Chilliwack will be $46 million a year.

I find it rather odd that the Reform Party, a party that comes into this House everyday and tells the government to cut spending, objects when that spending is cut close to home. "Not in my backyard" is the way Reformers play politics.

Francophones Outside Quebec

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. In causing the closure of the Centre francophone de santé et des services communautaires in southern Ontario, the Harris government has revealed its true colours. For Franco-Ontarians, the message is clear: If you want services in French, move to Quebec.

How does the Prime Minister explain his silent complicity with Mike Harris, as he cuts services to francophones in Ontario?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of this matter. I will certainly look into it, because I intervened successfully in the matter of the French school in Kingston, not very long ago. I want to see if there is a valid reason. I find it absolutely incredible, however, that suddenly, two weeks before they want to leave Canada, they are worrying about the francophones outside Quebec, who will be left to their own devices if Quebec separates.

But I can reassure francophones outside Quebec: do not worry. Quebecers-not the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois-but Quebecers themselves will never drop francophones outside Quebec.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is nevertheless unbelievable. The Prime Minister, who claims to be the defender of francophones outside Quebec, is closing his eyes to the treatment being given francophones in southern Ontario. Is he confirming he is totally incapable of ensuring equality for francophones throughout Canada?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member patted herself on the back. This is most uncommon. I like this last minute conversion. I like it because it gives me the opportunity to say once again that there may be problems, there have always been problems, things have always been difficult, but one thing is clear: francophones outside Quebec-

[An hon. member]

There are none left.

[Some hon. members]

Oh! Oh!

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Would the members who are francophones from outside Quebec please rise so we can see there are still francophones outside Quebec?

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[English]

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, I would remind you that I am not in this game. I am the referee.

Quebec Economy

[Georgette Sheridan, Liberal, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

According to a recent analysis by the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, an independent Quebec could acceed to the various international treaties.

Can the minister explain to us the stages and steps a country must pass through to acceed to NAFTA and to the World Trade Organization?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I can quote some of the conclusions and even produce the report. Mr. Roh's main conclusion is as follows: An independent Quebec would have no automatic entitlement to existing trade agreements such as NAFTA, the World Trade Organization agreement and the Auto Pact. Accession to these agreements would have to be negotiated.

Second conclusion: American law does not allow the President of the United States to grant an independent Quebec access to the trade advantages it enjoys at the present time as part of Canada, until such time as Congress approves and implements such accession.

In addition, it would be a long and difficult process to negotiate accession by an independent Quebec to the WTO, NAFTA and the Auto Pact. Bowing to congressional and private sector pressures, American negotiators would try to obtain changes in key sectors such as agriculture.

Bill C-72

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this entire House declared its opposition to drunkenness as a defence with the swift passage of Bill C-72.

The decision of the Supreme Court to hear the case of convicted child murderer Alton Royer shows clearly that the unelected Supreme Court has ignored the views of the elected members of Parliament and millions of Canadians.

We were told yesterday that the justice minister is seeking intervenor status in this case. Could the justice minister tell the House what his objective is in doing so?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the government appreciated the support of all parties in respect of Bill C-72, which changed the criminal law in this country, as all hon. members know, to make it impossible for someone to rely upon their own self-induced intoxication as an excuse when they commit crimes of violence against another involving general intent.

The case to which the hon. member refers included acts that occurred at a trial that was held prior to the enactment of Bill C-72. Therefore, when the Supreme Court of Canada grants leave to appeal in that case it will consider that case in reference to the law as it stood at the time of the alleged acts. Bill C-72 will not have any application.

Carriage of that prosecution rests, of course, with the provincial attorney general. However, as the parliamentary secretary told the House yesterday, we are considering asking the Supreme Court of Canada to allow us to intervene. If we did so, it would be to provide whatever assistance we can to the court in deciding the issue presented by that particular case.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as it seems there is some question as to whether Bill C-72 has been effective in preventing the use of extreme intoxication as a defence, what will the justice minister do to ensure that extreme drunkenness is not used as a defence in these cases?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I should emphasize for the hon. member that Bill C-72, which has now been approved by Parliament and proclaimed in force, is the law of the land.

I would simply point out that no such criminal law amendment is retroactive, so it would not affect a case that arose in the courts prior to its enactment. The case to which the hon. member referred is proceeding on the law as it stood before Bill C-72.

I can assure the hon. member that the enactment of Bill C-72 did in fact change the criminal law in this country. It made it impossible from that date onward for anybody to rely upon their own act of intoxicating themselves to escape the consequence of criminal conduct when it involved violence against another and general intent.

Federal Public Service

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the President of the Treasury Board.

According to the Official Languages Act, public servants in Ottawa-Hull have the right to work in their own language. However, in his latest report, the Commissioner of Official Languages confirmed that only 11 per cent of francophone public servants regularly write in French and that for three-quarters of francophones, English is still the only language of communication with their boss and at meetings at work.

Will the President of the Treasury Board acknowledge that the federal policy on language of work has failed pitifully in the Ottawa-Hull region and that once again, francophone employees are paying the price?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, it was a Liberal government that brought in the Official Languages Act. It is a Liberal government that has in fact advanced the cause of speaking in the official language of a person's choice in the federal public service right across the country.

There is more work to be done. We have recently put out a brochure, together with the Commissioner of Official Languages, to help encourage people to use the official language of their choice at their place of work in the federal public service. We will continue to try to improve the means of using the language of choice because that is part of this government's policy.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the choice is there, but the result is always the same.

Would the President of the Treasury Board agree that federal public servants in Quebec working in the Ottawa-Hull region are treated by the federal government as second-class citizens and that only the sovereignty of Quebec would be able to make French a language of work in government offices located in the Outaouais?