Mr. Speaker, I found the Liberal member's grandstanding amusing. His closing reasoning was obviously somewhat illogical. He was more critical of the opposition parties than of the government. I would gently remind him that, if he does not agree, he need only settle his differences with his own colleagues. This bill comes from the government, which is made up of people from his own party. So they will have to talk among themselves and try to reach an agreement. It was even a bit sad to see them in such disagreement this morning. However, I agree with my colleague on some points, on others, I do not, but I will get to that.
Obviously, we share his concern for society's disadvantaged. We agree on this, and I hope, when the time comes to adopt the unemployment insurance reform and other such things, he will again rise, as he did today. It seems to me that only one member was opposed last time. I am not sure I heard him. I am not sure he was present. Next time, we will watch to see where he stands in the upcoming debate on cuts to the transfer payments, in particular, and on social programs. We will see where he stands and whether his concern is real or whether he is just giving a political performance here, once in awhile, to please his constituents and ensure his re-election.
I want to point out that we have have to consider both the substance and the form of this bill. We agree with what the auditor general said about tax conventions, which is that there is going to have to be a code of conduct for signing such conventions with other countries. There can be major differences in taxation levels between Canada and the other country signing the convention. In such cases, there is clearly a problem, and we must ensure that we are not threatening economic transactions and running the risk of losing revenues here in signing such agreements.
Before us we have a tax convention with the United States. Obviously, a person can oppose it if they like, but they have to say so directly. They cannot, in our view anyway, oppose something that aims to maximize economic exchange between Canada and the United States.
For a long time it was believed that our markets in Canada were east-west and now increasingly we see that they are north-south. There is a great deal of potential for development there. I can understand that there are still some pockets of resistance among those who are opposed to free trade and everything that goes with it, but we must think of where we are headed in the next century. And this is where we are headed. Consistency and logic is required. When one agrees to get involved in something like free trade, one has to live with what that implies. One has to live with reciprocity as well. Now, I want to get on to the content of these amendments, which strike me as suffering either from bad drafting, technically speaking, or from a fundamental problem.
Of course, there is the first amendment. I have heard what the Liberal member has had to say, waxing so eloquent in his attack on the tax rate cut from 10 per cent down to 5 per cent. Yet his amendment is aimed at ensuring that this will not apply after the year 2000. Why before that date? Why not after that date? Why 2000? Why not 2001? Why not 2002? It is very hard to grasp the reasoning behind his first amendment and I have not found anyone able to explain the real meaning and scope of his first amendment to me.
Obviously, one cannot agree with something that is poorly written. You have to be for something or against it. You cannot be against something for a few years and then in favour of it after that. There comes a time for logic.
The second amendment reminds me of those who are in favour of free trade but only one way free trade, with others opening up their borders to us, but our borders being closed to them. But this is in the area of taxation. We are told that we must not allow this retroactive refund, as one might call it, not allow it if there has been income taxable in Canada during that period. There is another side to that coin also. What reasoning applies to the reverse situation, American residents whose assets were in Canada or Quebec?
But the amendment does not address the opposite situation. Accepting the second amendment means asking the Americans to follow suit and to reopen the tax convention. This is, I suppose, what they had in mind, because consistency is required with what is proposed. I shall be surprised if they do so, because these are the same people who tell us sovereignists in the speeches they make here: "It will be just dreadful if you vote yes. Perhaps NAFTA would have to be reopened". Yet they want to reopen tax conventions. And they spoke of their desire to reopen NAFTA during the election campaign.
I sense a strong desire on their part to reopen the whole discussion about relations between Canada and the United States. Of course, that is their right, but I do not think this desire is shared by the majority of the House or by the majority of the public.
Of course we are concerned about the most vulnerable in our society. And as far as the future of our social programs is concerned, I think we can all agree that some serious debate is in order regarding the approach suggested by this government.
However, we must not exaggerate, and the figures quoted by the hon. member to indicate the economic impact of these amendments or these motions are clearly exaggerated. There was a reference to hundreds of millions of dollars. I read what happened in committee, I followed the proceedings, and no one could extrapolate the same figures as the hon. member and say that hundreds of millions of dollars were involved in this particular case.
It is easy to quote figures out of the blue, but you have to support those figures, justify them and provide documentation. We cannot afford to keep throwing figures at the public and say: Yes, that is the way it is, without further ado. We have to be more serious, more credible than that.
And that is why we cannot support these amendments, and this applies both to Motion No. 1 and Motion No. 2. Motion No. 1 is poorly drafted, complicated and not consistent with what the hon. member said, in my opinion. The second amendment makes no provision for compensation or reciprocity. After all, this is a two-way street. When we sign tax treaties, there must be reciprocity. We cannot get away from that. However, there is nothing in the second motion that refers to this.
If they want to renegotiate the whole tax treaty, that is their problem. What we would prefer and what we always suggested is to go along with what was said by the auditor general. We now have a certain number of tax treaties that cause problems because of the differences in tax rates. In such cases we will need certain guidelines for adopting tax treaties, because this is going to escalate in the next few years, considering current economic trends.
So we will have to get much stricter guidelines when we send people to sign this kind of tax treaty, to avoid being faced with a situation that will be difficult to change subsequently.
In concluding, and I do not intend to speak at greater length on this matter, we agree with the tax convention. I must admit, however, that the retroactive aspect bothers us too. It bothers us that compensation is given retroactively.
That being said, these two amendments will not correct that, neither the first nor the second motion-they will not correct that because, as I said earlier, the amendments make no provision for compensation or reciprocity. When the time comes to vote on the tax convention on third reading, we will have to evaluate Bill S-9 as such. On the whole, we think it is important to pursue this approach.
I repeat, the retroactive aspect bothers us. But in any case, what the hon. member suggested does nothing to correct this particular aspect. We will vote against both amendments and we will vote in favour of Bill S-9 on third reading. I am sure the hon. member will listen to his colleague, the parliamentary secretary, who will explain what amounts are involved with this bill and tell him they are nowhere near what he suggested.
I find it amusing to hear him attack the Bloc Quebecois in this debate. He should be more concerned about ensuring that his party, the government party, has certain guidelines for adopting tax conventions. He should get that message across to his supporters and eventually to the government, and then we will get somewhere. We cannot backtrack and change things that have been signed and that arise from the whole North American free trade context. Any action that is taken should be logical and consistent, and that is why the Bloc Quebecois will support this bill and will reject, as the government and also the Reform Party have done on many occasions, the two motions proposed by the hon. member.