Mr. Speaker, of course Bloc Quebecois members will support Bill C-107.
However there are a few concerns that should be addressed in the debate. Having always made a point of seeing for myself how aboriginal people live, I feel I am better able to speak, perhaps with a bit more assurance, about aboriginal issues, including the bill before us.
As recently as last summer, I had the great privilege of visiting British Columbia and meeting with some aboriginal nations, some communities which were deeply concerned about the negotiation and the British Columbia Treaty Commission.
Among others, I met with the Nisga'a nation, the main party to the negotiations in British Colombia. I had the extreme privilege of visiting, with Mr. Adams, five Nisga'a communities settled in an a marvelous area. A few hundred years ago, two Nisga'a communities were wiped off the map when a volcano erupted in that part of the country. Today the Nisga'a people revere the ruins of these ancient villages and are really anxious to reach an agreement.
This is no exception to the usual attitude among the communities I met in British Columbia. Up to now, they always chose the path of negotiation in good faith rather than confrontation. Why do I mention the Nisga'a? Because, as I said in my opening remarks, I think they are at the centre of these negotiations. As you know the Nisga'a band is probably-in fact, it is-the only nation that is not under the umbrella of the British Columbia Treaty Commission because they had started their negotiations even before the commission was created, and the federal government recognized it.
I will give a short overview of the commission's progress in a few moments. As a matter of fact, having begun to negotiate before any other band, the Nisga'a are they necessarily a length ahead the others now.
However, they feel it is important for the negotiations to progress as fast as possible. Unfortunately, they are now blocked, both at the commission and with the Nisga'a.
Speaking of concerns in this regard, both the Chilcotin band and the Carrier-Sekanni band I visited told me that, if the negotiations with the Nisga'a did not progress, the commission's efforts to negotiate agreements with nations and communities of British Columbia could grind to a halt. This is why I feel we should take an interest in what is happening to the Nisga'a, who right now are having a really bad time.
Personally, I witnessed the terrible devastation of the forest environment. A certain territory has been recognized as belonging to the Nisga'a as part of their ancestral land or aboriginal territory. We know what the terms "aboriginal territory" mean. The Nisga'a are asking for only 8 per cent of this territory recognized by the court.
However, despite the fact that their claim is rather modest and reasonable, the Nisga'a are witnessing today the plundering of their forests. Between 100 and 200 trucks a day are taking away freshly cut logs. They are asking themselves: "My God, are we ever going to come to an agreement to put an end to this plundering, and manage to protect our hunting and fishing rights recognized by the Canadian constitution?" I have, in my office, videos which show the dreadful consequences of the clear cuts in British Columbia where, once the loggers have gone through, there is nothing left, neither trees nor beasts. Very often, the damage is irreparable. Such forests will take hundreds of years to recover.
In their opinion, had such forest been burned to the ground it would recover faster than it will in the present situation.
It is a race to clear cut as much of the forest as possible, and the Chilcotin, the Carrier-Sekkani and the Nisga'a, have a feeling that governments are allowing this wanton destruction, this mad race for profit, this rush to clear cut everything. When it is all over, when all the resources are gone, they believe they will be told: "Now, we are ready to resume negotiations and we are willing to give you the territory", a territory which will have been emptied, as I just said, of all its natural resources.
The Nisga'a are extremely concerned. I even wrote to the premier of British Columbia, asking him to put an end to this plundering. As you know, British Columbia is a big province, as big as Quebec, if not bigger. You have to travel by plane to reach these native communities. One can see the damage done by logging companies through clear cutting.
I take this opportunity to say that I, for one, find shocking this complete waste of a province's natural resources on what will probably be considered native lands, and recognized as such. We remain silent before the devastation, and the natives must wait for the negotiations to continue. In the meantime, they see that their lands keep deteriorating. It was worth mentioning, I think.
I also noticed a general shortage of housing in the communities; several generations live under one roof. There are health problems.
Finally, there is a pressing need to conclude treaties in British Columbia. I will talk about Quebec native communities later. In this regard, Quebec is a model. British Columbia would benefit from imitating the Quebec government, which has great respect for natives, in spite of what is reported in the media. I can assure you of the contrary, as I will demonstrate. I wish good luck to the people of British Columbia, hoping they will follow in Quebec's footsteps with regard to native peoples.
Let me talk a little about the Chilcotin people from British Columbia, because they are very outspoken. Something funny happened. When I told them that the official opposition critic wished to meet them, it apparently created quite a commotion in the community. The fact that a nasty separatist from Quebec, even though a critic for Indian affairs and as such in a position to put questions regularly to the minister, wanted to come to talk with them about their problems made them rather uneasy. They were a little concerned. However I found them to be great people, and warriors. I call them "warriors" because the Chilcotin pride
themselves in having been the only native nation in Canada to have fought a war against white people and won.
As you know, all the natives in Canada say they might have fought wars, one side against the other, but in the case of the Chilcotin, it was definitely the case and they are proud of it. They even mentioned the names of warriors who took part in the battle. It was clear to them that the Chilcotin had defeated the white people who wanted to invade their territory, but of course they were unable to hold out for long after that first victory. From then on, there was a gradual invasion of their territory.
Promises had been made to them at that time. It is worth noting that these were not necessarily agreements signed between the Prime Minister, Her Majesty the Queen and some representative of the natives. Even the courts are now beginning to recognize that the verbal agreements and commitments made at the time were legally binding, because natives were absolutely not able to understand-they needed translators to have white people's words translated into their language and white people needed translators to understand what the natives were saying. Thus verbal agreements were binding. Courts are beginning to recognize it.
At that time, those natives were told: "Listen, we recognize the Chilcotin nation, we recognize the Chilcotin Valley as your hunting and fishing grounds". What happened to the Chilcotin has happened to many native communities in Canada.
Over the years, over the decades, over the centuries, there has been a gradual invasion. Today this proud Chilcotin nation is reduced to six small communities on small reserves.
To look at the population figures, I believe that since 1987 the population of these communities has doubled. Now the people are living in cramped reserves, threatened with prosecution by the pulp and paper and forest companies if they go off their reserve to hunt.
There are huge problems, therefore, and the Chilcotin are impatiently waiting for the British Columbia treaty commission to get moving to ensure them of the few natural resources remaining to them.
The same situation exists with housing. Sometimes there are three generations living under one roof. The Chilcotin would therefore like to see the negotiating process get not just started up but speeded up.
Another example they spoke to me about, and one in which I have had to intervene, was that the military base in the Chilcotin valley is testing artillery on Chilcotin land. They have been trying without success for years to get this testing stopped.
The situation is therefore this: overpopulated reserves, an inability to have any say about such vital issues as housing and the free disposal of property that ought to be theirs, since they were the original inhabitants, an inability to have any effective impact on a military base which continues to pillage their natural resources. Needless to say, the Chilcotin are anxious to see the whole thing settled.
They too have agreements, and this is where we see the sense of responsibility among the aboriginal nations. The Chilcotin have an agreement with Fisheries. Some twenty people are involved with fisheries, the salmon fisheries among others. Conservation is primary among the priorities set. The concept of conservation is assured.
Then there is the concept of subsistence fishing, and thirdly there is commercial fishing. The Chilcotin have demonstrated that when they are given these responsibilities not only are they excellent conservationists but they can also obtain their food from subsistence fishing or hunting.
There are many such examples, and there is great anticipation of the day when everything can all be translated into agreements. At the moment, unfortunately, everything is at a standstill.
I will tell you a little later on where I think negotiations have stalled. I believe the federal government has a responsibility, but the Government of British Columbia also has a responsibility. I think both sides have to agree if there is to be any progress, because these aboriginal communities are ready to start negotiations, but we are now seeing obstruction on the part of the Government of British Columbia, and the federal government, instead of putting the pressure on to get things moving again, just sits there and says: "Well, I am going to wait until the Government of British Columbia pulls the switch and starts negotiating in good faith".
The trouble with the Premier of British Columbia is that when he came to power, with the NDP, he was very, very receptive to aboriginal issues. But recently, probably under pressure from the Reform Party, he is starting to say: "Listen-". They started by setting a deadline for the Nisga'a, and they said: "If no agreement is reached by that date, the deal is off". Of course the deadline passed and now all negotiations have been on hold since last summer.
Because of growing support for the Reform Party in western Canada, the Harcourt government is backing down and unfortunately, it is not only backing down but, as I said earlier, it allows this wholesale destruction of natural resources to continue. Meanwhile, the aboriginal peoples have to watch this exodus of natural resources from their communities without being able to intervene.
I also met the Carrier-Sekkani in Prince George. We had a very frank discussion about sovereignty. These aboriginal peoples, although they happen to be in British Columbia, 5,000 kilometres from Quebec, are concerned about the economic and political status of their brothers and sisters in eastern Canada, and I am referring particularly to Quebec. We had a very good free ranging discussion about the sovereignty of Quebec, and I think the Carrier-Sekkani understood that the quality of life of aboriginal
peoples in Quebec was clearly to be envied, compared with the quality of life of aboriginal peoples elsewhere.
I think we agreed on that. We also agreed that Quebec was certainly not going to build the Berlin wall the day after sovereignty is proclaimed to prevent aboriginal peoples or the Inuit from maintaining their contacts with their brothers and sisters in Canada and elsewhere, including Antarctica and the United States. Those contacts already exist and will continue to do so.
So, therefore, we each assured the other. They asked me as well, naturally, for support. They were very concerned about the British Columbia Treaty Commission. They said: "You know, Mr. Bachand, the commission will never get off the ground so long as there is no progress in the negotiations with the Nisga'a". If these negotiations blocked at the point they had reached, the others' negotiations at the first stage could almost certainly not be expected to catch up with the Nisga'as'. The Nisga'as are 20 years ahead of the other communities in their negotiations. Therefore the bill before us today is of major concern in British Columbia.
I want to say in passing-I was talking about the Carrier-Sekani earlier-I would like, while we are before the cameras here, to salute Camille Joseph, elder of the Carrier-Sekani nation, who is well into his 90s. I simply sent him a congratulatory note, but I will take a moment during my speech to note it in passing, because I think it should be mentioned.
The three communities I have just talked to you about are on the mainland. I went to the Island as well. The same concerns are to be found on Vancouver Island. Members of the Mid-Island Tribal Council expressed their concerns to me about the progress in the Nisga'a negotiations and the systematic blocking they are currently facing.
I thought it important to situate the context of this bill's passage, a bit. There is nothing like speaking when one has been there personally and has met them and discussed all these questions with them, often over a number of hours. So I think it appropriate to mention it here. British Columbia is very rich in native culture.
You know, as everywhere else, there are 200 reserves, 200 communities there and whether the people are Chilcotin, Nisga'a, Haida or others, all these nations are different and even communities within the same nation differ from one another.
Therefore, it is important to know. I went to the museum in Victoria, and the whole place, the complete two story museum, is dedicated to relations between the white people and the aboriginal peoples. There we can see that the aboriginal peoples of British Columbia really had an impact on cultural values in that province.
I will not hide the fact that there is some hostility now. It is true, but maybe it is because some people provoke that hostility. I can tell you that the natives feel no hostility whatsoever towards the white people. But they have been waiting for 150 years for issues to be settled, and it has not happened yet.
It is important to realize, to see, and it is important that I can attest to the cultural impact of the native people and to their contribution to the life of the white people in British Columbia. You can see it in all the stores, the museums and the schools. The native culture is omnipresent, it has a direct impact on white and non aboriginal values and I think that, with the creation of this commission, time has come to make sure we reach an amicable agreement with the native people of that area, just as we are trying to do in Quebec where I think we are well on our way.
According to my notes, Europeans have been present in British Columbia for 140 years now, and during that time, 14 treaties covering approximately 358 square miles on Vancouver Island were signed, involving the Hudson's Bay Company. Since Confederation, there has been only one treaty, in 1899; it is one of the numbered ones. In total, there are ten numbered treaties in Canada and that one is number eight; it covers the Peace River region and the northern part of Alberta.
It is important to note that treaty negotiations have been essential for native peoples in British Columbia for the last 140 years. Their chiefs went to London to see the king. They regularly came to Ottawa, and went to the Court in London, to try to solve their problem, but to no avail. Worse yet, we, the non-natives, made serious mistakes concerning them, and British Columbia is no exception.
Moreover, I have here some notes indicating that in 1927 and 1951 they were prohibited from going to court. That meant that these people, who were trying to negotiate their land claims in good faith, could not even go to court when the negotiations appeared to be deadlocked. In spite of it all, native peoples have persevered, sometimes breaking the law, and today the situation is such that we have to find a solution. Of course, now they are allowed to go to court and, in British Columbia, things are following their course.
I have a few examples here. In 1973, the six judges of the Supreme Court were split on whether to recognize native land titles; consequently, the federal government said: "Listen, we have to settle this whole thing. We have to start negotiating".
In 1982, there was another turning point with the patriation of the constitution which, by the way, Quebec did not sign, and never will after all, I believe. This constitution contained provisions dealing with native peoples; aboriginal rights and treaty rights were
recognized; the last remnants of British colonialism crumbled, imperialist policies started to fall apart, and then, the injunctions preventing aboriginal peoples from going to court naturally became null and void.
For the past 15 years, we have been trying again to find solutions through negotiations or through the courts, if negotiations are not possible.
I believe that the decision we will make today when we pass C-107, will be a vindication of this long struggle and will enable us to finally put an end to a history of confrontation which has plagued British Columbia for the past 150 years.
There is also an history to the commission. There was a report from a task force on claims in British Columbia and the creation of the commission was discussed at that time. The creators of that commission had really identified the need to enter into treaties with the first nations. I quote from that report: "that a new partnership be developed to recognize the importance of natives and first nations in Canada, based on voluntary negotiations well carried out, where natives, the provincial government and the federal government would be on an equal footing".
In September 1992, an agreement in principle was signed between the three authorities. This agreement implemented 19 recommendations made by the task force I mentioned earlier, including recommendation No. 3 which, at the time, called for the creation of the British Columbia Treaty Commission that was set up a little later and that we will confirm, because the federal government had not yet confirmed its participation, although that was happening in practice.
Today, or in the next few days, with the passing of Bill C-107, we will have confirmed the participation of the federal government in this issue.
In the history of the commission, it is also important to mention that at the provincial level, it is only in 1993 that British Columbia got its Indian Affairs Department. That was long overdue, considering all the problems that exist in British Columbia. It was not long ago that the department was established. So, it is important today that we have a recognized department, a recognized minister in British Columbia, a counterpart of the federal minister to be able to thoroughly discuss the issues.
The First Nations Summit would also be a principal to the commission. The first nations have given themselves a negotiation tool called the Summit, which is part of the agreements leading to the commission. This Summit is very active and several of the groups that I was mentioning earlier are participants in the Summit and defend the interests of natives, which will lead, they hope, to treaties.
How does this work? There are six different steps in the process. I think that it is important to follow the course of these steps. The first stage consists in submitting a declaration of intent to negotiate. I will get back to this later on. Forty or so first nations have already done so.
The second stage is the stage at which negotiation arrangements are made, first meetings held and evaluations conducted to determine if the first nations are prepared to negotiate. A first meeting takes place, where one group asks the other: "Are you ready to negotiate? How soon can we start?", and so on. A number of first nations, of whom I wanted to give you the list, are already at stage 2.
Stage 3 is the negotiation of a master agreement. The further along I get into this process, the less progress is made on these issues in terms of first nations's participation.
Stage 4 is the negotiation of an agreement in principle; stage 5, the negotiation of a definitive treaty; and stage 6, the implementation of the definitive treaty.
I told you that 43 first nations were taking part in the process. To date, 14 claims have passed stage 1. No individual group has gone further than stage 3 at this point in time. It should be noted however that the Nisga'as have taken an approach to negotiations that is different from the normal approach used by the commission. The Nisga'as negotiated for 27 years just to get to the equivalent of stage 3. Unfortunately, and I must digress here to say this, negotiations have stopped since.
As I indicated earlier, when the BC premier was elected, he said that the issue had to be settled. Finally, they agreed to set up the commission. Now, we can see that, with a provincial election impending in British Columbia, the premier is backtracking on his promises. The result is stalled negotiations with the Nisga'as, which in turn stalls the entire negotiation process with the other first nations of British Columbia.
Let us now turn to Quebec. We should wish to the BC first nations that their negotiations can eventually reach as advanced a stage as was reached in negotiations with their Quebec counterparts. Unlike British Columbia, Quebec has been signing modern treaties for the past 20 years, including the famous James Bay Agreement.
Twenty years ago, the Crees, the federal government and the Quebec government signed this historical agreement, which has become a standard agreement for the rest of Canada. More accurately, any time first nations seemed to be on the verge of achieving self-government or asked the federal government and their respective provincial government: "Could you spare a piece
of jurisdiction that we could take over?", the James Bay Agreement was quoted as a reference.
As far as I am concerned, it is still a reference, and just to show you how open-minded Quebecers are, they are now saying: "Even if we are always leading the way, under the present circumstances, we agree with the Crees on the need to update the James Bay Agreement model". This goes to show how open-minded Quebecers are concerning first nations and how far they are ready to go to meet native claims in Quebec.
I have some statistics before me that I should share with you because they come from the assistant to the Minister of Indian Affairs, Professor Bradford Morse, who, in a study he submitted to the task force, gives examples of a new constitutional partnership. As recently as 1992, Professor Morse wrote on the subject of land claims that Quebec was the first Canadian province to accept the continuity of aboriginal titles and to recognize them by trying to negotiate land claim settlements. Professor Morse concluded that, compared with the other provinces, Quebec has adopted a comprehensive position that can be seen as much more favourable to aboriginal people and their rights over their traditional lands.
I think that Professor Morse thus recognizes that the people of Quebec are ahead on land claims. They are so much ahead that, when this study was done, we had already concluded the model agreement I referred to earlier, the James Bay Agreement. However, the proposal that has just been made to the Attikamek-Montagnais was not yet on the table. This proposal would recognize what we call native areas, over which native people will have full jurisdiction. We will negotiate an agreement with them on how to divide the territory, over which they will have complete freedom with regard to, among other things, joint management of natural, non-renewable and other resources.
As far as these native areas are concerned, our proposal to the Attikamek-Montagnais even provides for a 40,000 square kilometre buffer zone, which we have agreed to share with the Attikamek-Montagnais. This shows once again that Quebec is in the vanguard of the drive to improve living conditions for Canada's native people.
On the question of self-government, Professor Morse goes on to say that, of all provincial governments, Quebec is the one that did the most to accommodate the desire of native people to exert more control over their lives and their community affairs.
The James Bay Agreement recognizes whole areas of jurisdiction that now come under the exclusive control of the Cree. These areas include culture, education and health. Instead of telling native people that they must go to all-white hospitals, follow the department's educational programs and comply with the directives from Environment Canada, the James Bay Agreement has put whole areas of jurisdiction under Cree control, and I think it is important to point this out.
The same goes for the language component. I just talked about culture, which is often closely related to language. Indeed, we Quebecers have known for a long time that our culture and our language are closely intertwined. We recognized that was also the case for aboriginal peoples. In that regard, it is rather interesting to see that, for several years now, the Supreme Court has been targeting Quebec's charter of the French language, Bill 101. Yet, that legislation must stay, and I want to tell you about some of its more interesting provisions. Quebec's charter expressly recognizes the right of aboriginals, Indians and Inuit to protect and develop their own language and culture.
The fact that Bill 101 even includes provisions which protect aboriginal languages in our province is an indication of how open minded Quebecers are.
This explains why, as professor wrote, aboriginal people in Quebec are much more successful in terms of preserving their language than those who live elsewhere in Canada. This is a perfectly normal and accepted way of doing things in Quebec where, for a long time now, young Crees have been taking Cree language classes with their own school board, while young Montagnais do the same in Pointe-Bleue or elsewhere.
It must be emphasized that Quebecers have always attached a great deal of importance to aboriginal cultures. We recognize the fact that aboriginals were here before us. We also recognize the fact that they have given us enormous wealth. In order to keep whole segments of these societies from disappearing, Quebecers strongly encourage the protection of aboriginal languages and cultures.
Incidentally, a while ago, Mrs. Beaudoin, the Quebec minister of intergovernmental affairs, submitted a claim to the federal government, which has not yet acted on it. As you know, the James Bay agreement deals with the sharing of costs relating to Crees and Naskapis. There is the James Bay agreement, but there is also the Northeastern Quebec agreement, which primarily concerns Naskapis.
Under that agreement, Quebec pays 25 per cent of the costs related to Crees and Naskapis, while the federal government pays for the rest. In the case of the Inuit, the proportions are reversed. However, some changes have occurred since 1987 regarding the sharing of these costs. Since that year, the birth rate among Crees has increased tremendously. Consequently, there are many more children attending school.
A special effort was made to develop education programs for adults. There is an increased demand for specialized education, including for young Cree children with special needs. The Quebec government pays for that component in the case of non aboriginal
children, but there is an increased demand up there, and we must provide the additional services required.
For some time, there was no problem with the federal government concerning the payment of these costs each year. Since 1987, however, the government has changed its way of doing things. It wants to index its contribution to the annual inflation rate and sticks to this rate instead of abiding by the provisions of the James Bay agreement which were negotiated in good faith by the federal government, Quebec as well as the Crees, the Naskapi and the Inuit.
Unfortunately, for the Quebec government, this meant a loss of $199 million in income. What did it do? It could easily have said to the young Crees, as some provinces did to other native groups: "Look, since the federal government, which has the fiduciary responsibility for the fees incurred on the reserves, is not paying its share, we are no longer able to financially support education for the young Crees, under the James Bay agreement. Tell them that some children will not be able to go to school this year".
I said earlier that the same thing goes on elsewhere in the United States. The people covered by the Treaty No. 7 in central Canada are being told that they can forget about post-secondary education. "We cannot send your children to school this year, because we ran out of money".
We could have done the same thing in Quebec, but the Quebec government met its responsibilities and took upon itself to foot the bill. Now, it is asking the federal government, the current Liberal government, to pay its share. I must say that I think it is unfortunate that the claim made by the government of Quebec has not been settled. We are talking about $199 million. It cannot just be shrugged off.
Professor Morse, an assistant to the Indian affairs minister, also says that Quebec has shown great leadership in promoting economic development. There are some economic development provisions in the James Bay agreement where it is recognized that significant compensation must be paid to the native communities following the construction of hydro-electric dams, and that was done. Their hunting, trapping and fruit-picking rights were also recognized. We are also leaders in economic development.
Furthermore, there is a happy combination of traditional activities, like hunting and fishing, and marketing. It is also worth mentioning that there are local outfitting operations managed by natives.
In health care, we see the same thing. The Quebec government is the leader. Natives in Quebec are in much better health than their counterparts in the rest of Canada.
Finally, I hope for the benefit of British Columbia natives that the federal government will adopt Bill C-107 and will go further and use its influence and its fiduciary role to force the Harcourt government to go back to the negotiating table. I also hope that the negotiations concerning the Nisga'as will be resumed and that the participation of the federal government as a party in the British Columbia Treaty Commission will be accepted so that natives in that province can one day benefit from as much generosity as natives in Quebec.