Debates of Nov. 2nd, 1995

The Referendum

[An hon. member]

We love you.

[John Manley, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Sit down and shut up.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

If there is no question, sit down.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Are we to understand, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister of Canada is now questioning the right of Quebecers to decide their political future? That is the question.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite is hauling out words from all over the place. The words I quoted earlier-

[An hon. member]

Answer the question.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Hamilton East, ON]

-are not words from all over the place, these are the words of the Quebec justice minister, who, I wager, will be in the Leader of the Opposition's caucus soon. He said that Quebecers do not hold a referendum because they lost the first one and think they could score better three weeks later. These are the words of the Quebec justice minister.

What is important is that we remember the words of the Leader of the Opposition the evening he talked about the results. He said that the referendum debate had demonstrated Quebecers' discipline, political maturity and their profound attachment to democratic values, and that the wishes and democratic vote of Quebecers deserved respect.

We cannot chose a white race, like the Leader of the Opposition did. We must respect the vote of all Quebecers. Let us hope he will do so.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there are limits. The Prime Minister of Canada has just said we are lucky he allowed us to hold a referendum. We question the Deputy Prime Minister on it, on the right of Quebecers to decide their future themselves, and she answers any old thing. This is scandalous.

[Some hon. members]

Indeed.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Are we to understand that the Prime Minister of Canada has just taken upon himself to decide the limits of democracy in Quebec?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister in his speech last night defended the right of all Quebecers. He took a page from the book of the Leader of the Opposition who said last Canada Day that we live in the most democratic country in the world. The people of Quebec spoke.

[An hon. member]

That is not true anymore.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Hamilton East, ON]

It was true on Monday night. Between Monday night and Wednesday somehow it is not true anymore but the reality is-

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You have changed it.

[An hon. member]

No way. You can't take the heat.

[An hon. member]

Vote yes and it is democratic.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Hamilton East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on the subject of democracy, the most unfortunate part is that the Leader of the Opposition never took back the words spoken by Mr. Parizeau the other night. The Leader of the Opposition's remarks about the white race three weeks ago were never taken back. This reveals that it is not the Prime Minister who fails to respect Quebecers' right to vote, it is Lucien Bouchard and the Parti Quebecois.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in his speech last night, the Prime Minister indicated that he is not prepared to tolerate any more referendums on Quebec sovereignty.

My question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. We are wondering exactly how it is that the government intends to achieve this. For example, is it considering a federal law to outlaw provincial referendums? Exactly what is it proposing?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, once again there is an opportunity for the Reform Party to join the ranks of Canadians who frankly want all of the country to get on to governance. Instead, he is salivating for another referendum because he did not like the results of the first one.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what Canadians want from this government are answers to some simple questions. They do not want to see the government defending the same kind of demagoguery we have here sometimes.

If the separatists cannot have another referendum on Quebec sovereignty, which I suspect they would be ill advised to pursue in the near future, they may try simply to seek a mandate through an election, something which would be much easier to achieve.

Does the government really think that this would be a better alternative for Canada than a referendum?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the best way to avoid another referendum is clearly to effect changes in the distinct society clause or in the right of veto, but especially changes that affect the respective powers of the federal and provincial governments.

We have already started to make these changes. They have been indicated. The federal government is now redefining its role and responsibilities. We are doing it at a lower cost to Canadians because we will be reducing the size of the federal government by 20 per cent.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in terms of the government's nascent constitutional agenda, it would be advised to pursue unity by pursuing those issues on which Canadians agree and not those issues on which they are divided.

Yesterday the Prime Minister said he would propose a constitutional veto not for the Government of Quebec but for the people of Quebec. I would presume that is by referendum. Now he says he does not want more referendums in Quebec.

Does he foresee further consultations of the people in Quebec and outside Quebec on their constitutional future or not?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that considerable changes are needed in the Canadian federation. I think we all agree on this.

The federal government has to play a leadership role. It has to redefine its roles and responsibilities. It has to clean up its act. It has started to do that. The various means that will be used in the future either to clarify the constitutional position or to redefine the jurisdictions of all levels of government will be taken whenever necessary by whatever means necessary.

But we must not forget that Canada is not just an addition of 10 provinces. It is all Canadians voting together in a federal set-up in order to elect a government and representatives that look at national interests, not only provincial interests.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition publicly dissociated himself from the words of Mr. Parizeau the very next day here in this House, and I therefore accuse the Deputy Prime Minister of having knowingly lied to this House a few moments ago.

[The Speaker]

My dear colleague, I must ask you respectfully to please withdraw the words you used here a few minutes ago concerning the Deputy Prime Minister.