Debates of Feb. 13th, 1995

The Environment

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Comox—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, located in Sydney, Nova Scotia is what has been described as the worst environmental disaster in Canada, the Sydney tar ponds.

Over the last nine years both the federal and provincial governments have been working on an incinerator to burn over 700,000 tonnes of toxic waste which includes PCBs and a deadly brew of various hydrocarbons. Nine years and $55 million later, the project still does not work.

Can the environment minister justify why the people of Sydney, Nova Scotia now have the highest cancer rate in North America and the government waste, mismanagement and inaction on the cleanup of this toxic cesspool?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the member has brought to the attention of the House that indeed there is an investment of $55 million to clean up tar ponds that obviously took many years to build up.

As one whose grandfather was born there I know the sacrifices of the people in the Sydney area. I know the sacrifices of industrial workers who have lived with pollution for eight decades of this century.

The Sydney tar ponds cleanup is proceeding. The level of incineration at the moment is being examined regularly to ensure that the health and safety of the people in the area is not affected. We hope the cleanup of this mess will not take the decades it took to accumulate.

[Bill Gilmour, Reform, Comox—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would disagree with the minister. Her own project manager says the project does not work. It is going to have to go out to private tender to make it work.

The Canadian Council of Environment Ministers agreed to a set of environmental guidelines for the burning of toxic waste. Both the Nova Scotia minister and the federal minister are signatories.

Can the minister explain why the Sydney incineration permit completely disregards these guidelines? The permit allows levels 10 times higher than those allowed in the guidelines.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the Sydney emission levels are below the levels that were set by CCME. The Sydney levels not only meet the current Nova Scotia guidelines but also the guidelines established by the CCME.

Indian Affairs

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs. According to audit reports that the minister received on census surveys of aboriginal people living on reserves, the government continues to use incomplete, unreliable and questionable data, to quote the exact terms used in the reports. In June, the opposition brought this situation to the minister's attention.

Will the minister tell us whether Statistics Canada's census takers will have access to reserves in the future in order to take exact population counts, since grants for aboriginal people are calculated on a per capita basis?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure after 15 months the hon. member knows this. Most of the social programs we do on First Nations are not based on Statistics Canada figures. When we build a school, we go in there and count the number of students, whether it is an elementary school or a high school in some cases. Or, the Minister of Health will go in there with Operation Head Start. If it is a health facility the same applies.

The only time we use statistics is when we fund tribal councils but we do not use those of Statistics Canada. Again we go in and count the numbers on site. This is the way it is done. The Statistics Canada figures are a tool that I use to check what we are doing, but no more or no less than a tool.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister admitted himself, he uses statistics for certain programs.

Can the minister explain why eight months have gone by since he agreed that adjustments should be made, yet no corrective measures have been taken to ensure that the calculation of grants for bands are based on exact population counts of aboriginal people?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, after my friend raised this matter the last time, which was several months ago, I believe I directed the staff that once a year where we use statistics the band officer provides us-there are 605 First Nations-with a statutory declaration of the actual numbers.

Again this is another tool, but it is not primarily what 80 per cent of the services with aboriginal people are based on. They are based on actual counts between the regional director gener-

als and the people in the field who know whom we are dealing with. If we do not, we should not be in there.

Gun Control

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, last June I asked the justice minister to undertake a national study to determine the source of firearms used in criminal activities. Despite assurances by his parliamentary secretary eight months later Canadians are still waiting.

Three months ago I put a question on the Order Paper asking how many registered gun owners used their guns in the commission of a crime anywhere in Canada.

My question for the Minister of Justice is simple. By its own admission the government has no comprehensive statistics on which if any of the more than 1.2 million registered guns in the country were used for criminal activity. Therefore how can he defend spending millions of dollars on gun registration as a solution to crime when he has no proof that the legal owners of firearms are part of the problem?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, when Canadians want advice on matters of health they go to physicians. When they want to know about the law they go to lawyers. When Canadians want advice on what to do about crime and community safety they go to the police.

The police in the country have for 10 years been calling upon the federal government to introduce a national system of registration. As recently as last summer the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police passed a resolution exactly to that effect. I take that as pretty solid advice.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the justice minister for the answer.

I do not know whom he has spoken with but over past months I have spoken with and listened to a number of police officers both in my riding and across the country. I have yet to find a police officer below the rank of superintendent or chief of police who believes universal gun registration will do anything to prevent crime.

For the minister's plan to work it must have the support of rank and file police officers whose lives are on the line. Could the minister provide the House with evidence of their support?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, in the past the Canadian Police Association has spoken to this issue. I can tell the hon. member that in the past the Canadian Police Association has passed resolutions favouring universal registration.

May I also point out that in Edmonton last fall when this very controversy broke out and the police force, the constables, not the chiefs, were asked, 60 per cent in a plebiscite favoured registration of all firearms.

Foreign Affairs

[Carolyn Parrish, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Canadian participation in the United Nations mission in Haiti demonstrates our commitment to restoring democracy in that country. Could the minister tell us exactly what Canada's contribution to the UN mission in Haiti will entail?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to convey to the hon. member, in this House, the Canadian government's commitment to democracy in Haiti.

First, a group of Canadian police officers have trained Haitians who will be called upon to perform civil police duties in the coming weeks. Second, a Canadian Armed Forces contingent will join in the peacekeeping operations as soon as the UN decides to send out a peacekeeping contingent to replace the multinational force presently serving in Haiti.

The Government of Canada has launched a program to support the Aristide government by investing substantial amounts in helping non governmental organizations provide what is referred to as basic care and essential services to the people of Haiti.

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Almost a year ago, the Government of Vietnam threw Tran Trieu Quan, a Canadian citizen, in jail without laying any charges against him. Last December, Hanoi, through the good offices of Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs, put a price on Mr. Tran's freedom by demanding that his family pay what amounts to a $100,000 ransom. Two weeks ago, the Vietnamese government withdrew this offer.

How can the minister explain his decision to give Vietnam several millions of dollars in Canadian aid when that country disregards all rules of basic justice by keeping a Canadian citizen in jail without any formal charges?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to say to the hon. member that his press conference in Quebec City did not do much to help Mr. Quan. Certainly, such media events here in Canada are not looked upon and interpreted very favourably by Vietnamese authorities.

Furthermore, I can assure Mr. Quan's family that the Government of Canada, through its ambassador and through the Prime Minister himself, who made direct representations to Vietnamese authorities during his trip, is pursuing this matter and trying to convince Vietnamese authorities to either bring specific charges against Mr. Quan or let him return to Canada.

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we to understand from the foreign affairs minister's comments that his efforts and those of the Prime Minister were unsuccessful and that he is unable to protect a Canadian citizen whose fundamental rights are being flouted in Vietnam?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what must be understood is that the hon. member's actions, instead of helping us find a solution to Mr. Quan's problem, are making it considerably tougher for the Canadian government to make representations on behalf of Mr. Quan and his family.

Gun Control

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in a Globe and Mail newspaper article dated April 23, 1993 the present Prime Minister was quoted as saying:

"He believes that the new gun control law passed by Parliament within the past year should be given a chance to work before the Liberals see whether it should be tougher".

I ask the Prime Minister: What made him change his mind?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the proposals we announced on November 30 are intended as part of the government's concerted effort to achieve what we described in the election campaign as safe homes and safe streets.

We believe they are integral to an effort government wide to deal effectively with the criminal misuse of firearms, to achieve better control at our borders with respect to what firearms enter Canada, and to enhance public safety.

I might add, knowing the hon. member's connection with the province of Alberta, that there is increasing evidence the people of that province are entirely in accordance with our view.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the justice minister continually states to the House and the people of Canada that if we want to know about a question of policing we should ask the police chiefs.

Why does the minister not accept and embrace the decision of the police chiefs on their stand on capital punishment and their stand on the removal of section 745 if he really believes what he is saying?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I take it implicit in the question by the hon. member is an acknowledgement that the police chiefs are in favour of the registration of firearms.

May I say that not only in relation to firearms but on a broad range of subjects the police are supportive of the agenda of the government to achieve public safety.

The Budget

[Audrey McLaughlin, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

The next budget will show Canadians whether the government intends to build Canada or to dismantle Canada. There have been a number of suggestions that the government is contemplating block transfers not just for social programs but for health programs.

As the Minister of Finance will be meeting with provincial and territorial ministers tomorrow, will he today in the House and tomorrow in his meeting clarify how he sees the government's budget ensuring that the Canada Health Care Act remains as it is now and ensuring that Canadians will have health care regardless of what area they live in or how rich or how poor they are?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I will be meeting with the finance ministers tomorrow. I will not be going into the details of the budget with them for the reasons I have stressed many times in the House. However we will certainly be discussing the vast range of relationships that exist between both levels of government and how a future budget might well impact on them.

I can however assure the member opposite that the question of health care, which is one of the proudest legacies of the Liberal Party, will never be abandoned by a Liberal government.

[Audrey McLaughlin, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is for the Minister of Finance.

Could the Minister of Finance explain to the House how block transfers in health care would ensure that there would be a Canada health care standard and that the Canada health care act would remain intact?