Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity of being able to enter into this discussion on Bill C-59. I want to say very clearly to begin with that I do not support the amendment which was moved by the hon. member for Mercier today. There are some very strong reasons we cannot support what was suggested.
The recommendation that came in the 1994-95 budget is certainly a policy change by the Liberal government. It is a move away from universality. Now the program is targeted and takes into consideration those people most in need of additional assistance to carry out their daily responsibilities.
As has been pointed out not only by the mover but by the hon. member from the government who just spoke, this amendment would continue universality and put back in place a federal tax credit of 17 per cent or an amount of about $3,482 for any and every taxpayer 65 or over. At this point we have to ask whether we can afford it and continue to do that.
The Liberal government and Liberals when they were in opposition argued that universality should be sustained and it should continue and that should be the policy of government forever after. They argued that when the question of the clawback on old age assistance was presented before this House in the last sitting. At that time the Conservative government made the decision that we should put a clawback in place. Now that is in place and old age assistance is somewhat more targeted toward those in need.
Now we are at the stage at which the Liberals, now in government, see that the reality of our fiscal situation is bringing us to this kind of decision making and that it is most necessary. We must be able to target government funds toward those most in need. If we supported this Bloc amendment it would revert to universality and I do not think that would be realistic in light of today's current economic circumstances.
I would like to make one or two remarks with respect to the case put forward by the hon. member for Mercier today. The hon. member said in her presentation that the change of the federal tax credit from universality to one which is targeted and institutes the clawback principle is a deliberate attack on the middle class. The hon. member went on to say that it abruptly ends universality. She said that before we do these kinds of things we should have tax reform. She said we want to keep a feeling in Canada that everybody belongs and that we should keep taxes off of the unemployed, the middle class and those most in need.
That sounds like an ideal society that a socialist point of view would certainly put forward in this House.
It is always the underlying premise that one is going to take away from the rich somewhere and give to someone else. One is going to transfer payments continually to look after someone else in our society. One can understand that from people who have this kind of a left wing socialist approach to life in which they think that somebody is rich, that somebody else is earning more money than they and that through government law they must transfer those earnings to somebody else they may feel is in need.
If we look at this policy here where we had the tax credit to all taxpayers over the age of 65 it will tag seniors who have retired with huge incomes. It could be $1 million or $100,000 or $200,000 a year, we were providing an extra benefit to the rich. I do not know how well that sits with someone who looks at it from a rather left wing, socialist approach as the Bloc Quebecois does.
I have been most disappointed to hear that kind of view from that party in its contribution to this House. Most likely it has made a very good replacement in some sense for the New Democratic Party which once sat somewhere in this relative position in the House.
However, we must look at reality today. The Government of Canada has a deficit of $39.7 billion. We have interest payments of $40 billion on a debt of over $500 billion and it is moving toward $50 billion per year as our debt continues to accumulate as we continue to spend. That is the way it is. Every one minute $18,000 is added to the debt. If we look at that in terms of the income of members of Parliament, every four minutes we add $64,000 to the debt of this country on to the current accumulated debt. That is adding up very quickly and we need to do something about it.
Fiscal responsibility must be part of the policy that we have in front of us here. We must recognize that the decrease in cost to the government of some $300 million is part of an expenditure reduction program that was necessary and is necessary to be used to try and keep the level of deficit down and keep the level of interest costs down so we can get this country back on a more pay as you go basis.
Bloc members do not understand that kind of language. They feel they can have it both ways. They feel they can spend here,
tell one crowd that we are going to spend and keep all these benefits for them on this hand and at the same time we are never going to have to face fiscal reality and deal with this big deficit in the country or deal with the accumulating debt of the country. Those two policies, if they were told in the same building at the same time, would look very foolish. These inconsistencies are continually presented on the floor of this House and Canadians are not buying that kind of approach.
I know the people of Quebec, as they may watch this debate today and as members of this House point out the inconsistencies of this debate that is presented, they will not buy the kind of message that the Bloc Quebecois is presenting to Canadians in this House and in the referendum that is going on in Quebec trying to present to the people of Quebec. They will not buy it. They will see the inconsistencies. They will see that it is the wrong approach to building Canada. It is the wrong approach to building any city in Quebec. It is the wrong approach to building any community in Quebec. It is not the approach that will bring fiscal accountability to Canada, nor will it bring fiscal accountability to the province of Quebec as it should.
This amendment before us is unacceptable in principle and unacceptable in terms of the current circumstances. It is unacceptable because it comes from a philosophic bent that is unacceptable to Canadians. It is one that will not build this nation of ours.
I encourage the members of this House to vote against the amendment because it just does not fit in terms of today's reality.