Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that it is a pleasure to participate in the debate on the motion tabled by the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound.
As a member of the Standing Committee on Finance the items that are included in the member's motion have been front and centre on my personal agenda for well over a year. There is a reason for that. The reason is that our government understands and takes very seriously the fiscal circumstances that face this nation. We are committed to working responsibly to manage the deficit and the debt and to responding to the needs and the interests of Canadians.
We are doing that in a very dynamic way. It is that process that I would like to refer to in my comments here this afternoon.
About a year ago the Minister of Finance came to us in the House and invited us all to participate in the first ever prebudget debate. He invited us as members to bring the concerns, the issues, the strategy, the direction of our constituents, Canadians, to this House of Commons and share them with him.
That process worked very well. That debate was very energized. It was informative. I know that the minister took a lot away from that day in the House and included it in his subsequent budget, our first budget as a government, that I would remind the House included a number of things. It included issues of tax fairness where we got rid of the $100,000 capital gains exemption. More important and more particular, for every dollar that we raised in revenues there were $5 saved in spending cuts, a five to one ratio.
The process has continued in a very dynamic way. In October 1994 the Minister of Finance came to the Standing Committee on Finance and presented a very articulate and clear understanding of his view of the economic forecast for our nation. At the same time, he talked about the fiscal circumstances that we faced then and face right now. He enjoined the members of the committee to take this information and share it in detail with Canadians and to begin the first ever prebudget consultations.
That consultation process started here in Ottawa with a panel of experts from the economy, from banking, from the social sector, from the NGOs. We sat around the table and talked about the economic assumptions in the minister's papers. We talked about the strategies of spending cuts versus revenue measures. We talked about the spending cuts that might be appropriate, those that would be inappropriate, the tax measures that might be appropriate and those that might be inappropriate.
From there and armed with a lot of information, the committee members fanned out across the nation. We talked to hundreds of Canadians. We went to communities like Lunenburg and Hamilton. In Hamilton I had the great fortune to chair the session.
We did something a little different. Rather than just hear individual witnesses, we encouraged Canadians as individuals to come to sit with us around the table. They took a very short time, two, three minutes, to position their particular areas of interest, their particular concerns. Some of these people came with presentations from groups. Some came merely as individuals interested in the process.
We sat together and we encouraged and invited them to talk with each other, to do their best to build consensus, to try to find and agree on the things that Canadians say we need to do to deal with the fiscal situation that we face.
As this process continued and coincident with it, members and colleagues of mine went back to their ridings and had town hall meetings with their own constituents, asking the same questions. Tell us about the assumptions. Tell us about spending cuts versus revenue measures. Members brought that data back to the minister who I know will read them and respond probably after the budget when he can not only comment on their suggestions but on his thinking around where he agreed and where he made some different choices.
I had one of these meetings. It is my second annual meeting and what I found in my riding was very interesting. Last year, I had 20 people out to my forum. It was a very interesting and informative night but only 20 people were there.
This year there were over 100 people. The message to me from my constituents was that they appreciated the process the government was taking. They believed that the government is listening to them, that it will take what they are saying and deal with it to build a consensus, a balanced strategy to help the country restore itself to fiscal stability.
The other thing that proved to me that this was so was that the whole thing was done without cost. The room was donated. The microphone system was donated. The coffee and donuts were donated. The community said: "This is important to us. This is significant for us. We believe in this process".
We did not have to charge Canadians $1 a shot to phone in on the 1-900 number. People were invited to come and share free of charge their concerns and their interests.
Over the course of the last five months we have been engaging Canadians in a very participatory and involved strategy. It makes a difference. Canadians want to be a part of this. They want to be heard.
What are the messages we have heard over the last while? Very clearly we found consensus that we must deal with the deficit and the debt. There is no question. Second, there is general agreement that it is far preferable to focus on the spending side and to reduce spending than it is to do a lot on the revenue measures side.
When I gave a speech in my riding last week I said to my constituents, "We are listening. We hear you. We understand the importance of spending cuts. But please understand what you are saying. You may think that your tax dollars are being burned in the fireplace and going up in smoke. Yes, there are places where we have to do a better job, where we have to cut back and where we have to be more efficient, but there are many programs that are helping Canadians". Those programs are helping groups in my community. They may be cut. As a result we have to be prepared to be compassionate.
With that in mind I would like to turn to some of the recommendations which were made by the standing committee. The first recommendation, which I strongly agree with, is that
we must deal with the issue of MPs' pensions. I look forward to the President of the Treasury Board presenting that legislation, sooner rather than later, because I believe that as we members have to show as these spending cuts come into effect-and they are going to be an impact-that we too are part of the process.
The other thing which we recommended as part of the committee report was that we must start with government operations. Government must take the responsibility to look at itself, improve its efficiencies, improve the quality of the programming that we are providing to Canadians and do it less expensively. We have to understand there are going to be cuts in the public service. People are going to be affected.
I have been involved in downsizing programs in the private sector. There are good ones and there are bad ones. The ones that work recognize that the people who are affected really have nothing to do with the growth in the business or in the government. They are not guilty; however, they are the ones who will have to make changes.
I know that the Canadian taxpayer as a good employer will want to provide to the people who are leaving packages which allow them to leave with respect and dignity. These packages will cost money. It would be totally inappropriate for me to say that there can be no new spending in this budget. We have to recognize that for longer term gains we have to have spending in the short term to recognize the good work that our public servants have done. Certainly in my riding I have been well supported by the correctional people, by my human resources development people and by Industry Canada, those in the regional office, and I thank them. We must deal with that with compassion.
As we talk about the strategy of spending cuts versus tax measures, I would like to point out that in the jurisdictions that we hold up as the best jurisdictions for spending control-and I am thinking of Alberta as one-there have been revenue measures. In Alberta the increase was in medical premiums of about 50 per cent. There were other increases in fees and in licences.
I know that the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound talked once in an intervention about loopholes. He said, "Those are taxes. They collect money. If it looks like a tax and it collects money like a tax, it is a tax". These fees and these revenue measures could be determined or viewed as taxes.
My point is that in jurisdictions where they are managing their deficit and debt there are revenue initiatives which go along with and are part and parcel with the spending cuts.
When we look at these messages we now consider what it is that the minister is going to do in terms of his next budget; the action that we will see as a response to this consultation and these messages. I do not know what he is going to have in his budget. He has been very good and done a good job as a minister in keeping those things close to his vest, as he should.
The thing I need to point out, which has been pointed out on a number of occasions in this House today, is that we have to, as I believe the minister will, deal with this very difficult agenda with compassion, generosity, fairness and balance.
Strangely enough those words are clearly absent from the member's motion. There is never a reference to how it would be done. Perhaps that in itself is the difference between the Liberal Party and the Reform Party. While Reform members protest that they will not hurt anyone, they never use words like fairness, balance and compassion. Those are real in our society and are things which I am committed to and which I believe in.
In closing I would like to say that experiencing the cross-country discussions, talking to Canadians, and hearing their perspectives was tremendously important for me to understand the differences that exist across this vast nation.
The last budget was brutal in Atlantic Canada. Communities that lost their defence installations were hit very hard. It is my expectation that in the next budget some of the rest of us may start to feel that pinch. It is going to be a challenge for us as a government to continue in a positive fashion to make sure Canadians do not go without, but that we do manage things more effectively and efficiently, that we recognize where government can play a role and where other partners in society can fill the void or maybe take over.
These are challenges that will make it very interesting for us over the course of the rest of our mandate. I very definitely believe and I would encourage the Minister of Finance to continue his dynamic and evolving process in this important area.
I have to make reference to one particular event that happened. Over the course of our discussions many Canadians said: "You know, these are tough times and I really do not want more taxes, but by golly, this country is important to me. We have to make sure it stays together. If there is a way of me providing funds that will go directly to maintaining our country, to reducing the deficit, I would be willing to participate".
Do not get me wrong. I would never suggest this is a strategy that will help us out of our problem. What made it important to me was the fact that I received a cheque from one of my constituents made out to the "save Canada and deficit reduction fund". Interestingly, I discovered there is an account this money could be sent to. I have sent it on and expect he will receive recognition for his contribution.
The message to me is that Canadians do feel passionately about this country. They do want things to be better. They do believe this government through balance, fairness and equity has a plan that will work.
I look forward to the minister's budget. I have every confidence that he is listening to the Canadian people and will respond to their needs and to the needs of others who have an influence on our domestic economy. With that I close and thank the member for providing us with the opportunity today to talk about this very important subject.