Debates of Feb. 16th, 1995

Pictou Landing Indian Band Agreement Act

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I enjoyed listening to the member for Central Nova in whose riding is the Pictou Landing band. I also enjoyed the speech of the Bloc member for Saint-Jean. However, if it had not been for the opening and closing statements, I would not know which way he would be voting.

It is a pleasure to have an opportunity to say a few words at third reading of Bill C-60, the Pictou Landing Indian Band Agreement Act. The legislation has received due consideration at second reading and careful review in committee. I thank the departmental officials who have provided us with a cogent and detailed explanation.

While my party and I had some concerns, particularly over ratification of an agreement after payment of $28 million of the $35 million package has already been made, we support the intent of the legislation.

I will give a quick background. In 1966 the crown failed to provide or to obtain the band's informed consent to transfer to the province of Nova Scotia its riparian rights on the Boat Harbour tidal estuary. This transfer permitted the province to operate Boat Harbour as a facility to treat effluent from the kraft mill owned by Scott Industries Maritime Limited.

In July 1992 the government approved a mandate to negotiate an out of court settlement of the lawsuit. It was ratified by vote

on July 5, 1993. The final agreement was signed on July 20, 1993. That was under the previous administration.

The final agreement provides that the band gives Canada a release from responsibility and liability for past, present and future effects related to the Boat Harbour effluent treatment system in exchange for compensation to the Pictou Landing band. As I mentioned previously, the total compensation was $35 million of which the band received $28 million at the end of April 1994 and will receive the remainder in April 1995.

The one outstanding question in my mind is: What has taken so long to bring the bill forward? I have asked the question and I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer.

There are two critical issues addressed in the legislation. First it will ensure that all future claims by members of the First Nations in that area will be directed to an established fund that the bill provides. This means that no further claims can be made against the crown in this instance. This is critical to me and my party. We therefore are satisfied with that arrangement.

Second, Bill C-60 provides that the Pictou Landing Micmac band is responsible for managing and disseminating the settlement money provided, a total of $35 million, $20 million of which will go to pay out claims to the band and to individual members. The remainder, $15 million, shall be used to pay band members to relocate should it become necessary. Once the allotment has been used, the band has no further recourse against the crown for further financial compensation.

Having addressed the two operative principles of the bill, I want to add that it is my hope the $20 million will help deliver the band to self-sufficiency. We feel that every agreement the government signs should ultimately bring more self-sufficiency to the band.

The Reform Party supports the conclusion of outstanding claims. The Pictou claim is a consequence of the non-fulfilment by the government of an obligation arising from the improper administration of reserve lands by the department. This breach of fiduciary responsibility and duty has now been settled.

I am confident members of the Pictou band will manage this settlement responsibly and I wish them well.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed.)

Firearms Act

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved that Bill C-68, an act respecting firearms and other weapons, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Madam Speaker, may I say that I consider it a privilege to lead off debate at second reading on this important piece of legislation and to urge the House to adopt the legislation in principle before sending it to the standing committee for detailed consideration.

If I may, I would propose to begin my treatment of the legislation today by speaking about matters of principle that motivate the government in preparing and presenting this legislation: objectives, ideals and values.

The government suggests that the object of the regulation of firearms should be the preservation of the safe, civilized and peaceful nature of Canada.

While there are many reasons we respect and admire our neighbours to the south and value our unique relationship with them, there are also aspects of the American way of life that we see as very different from what we want for ourselves. Perhaps chief among them is the way in which firearms are regulated and used.

It is said that there are over 200 million firearms in private ownership in the United States of America, including tens of millions of handguns, with varying levels of regulation, but generally in a context in which the private use of firearms is acknowledged, recognized and even in some places encouraged including for self-protection.

It seems to me and to the government that we do not want that for ourselves. We do not want to live in a country in which people feel they want or need to possess a firearm for protection. That is the first principle we take as a guiding principle for the preparation of legislation in terms of the regulation of firearms.

A second principle is that if we are to retain our safe and peaceful character as a country we should signal in every possible way that we will not tolerate and we will severely punish the use of firearms in the commission of crime. Those who take up a firearm to threaten others, to rob or to assault must know that by choosing to use a firearm they are making an important decision about a large part of the rest of their lives. The punishment must be certain and must be significant.

Those who smuggle guns, those who traffic in illegal firearms, those who profit by putting guns into the hands of criminals must know that the penalties for such misconduct will be swift and will be certain. That is the second principle we take as governing or guiding the preparation of legislation as it relates to firearms.

A third principle is that we must acknowledge and respect the legitimate uses of firearms. We should acknowledge and respect the history and tradition of hunting, not only as a favourite pastime in many parts of Canada but as a very important economic activity contributing directly to the prosperity of a number of regions throughout Canada. We must acknowledge and respect the use of firearms for ranching or hunting purposes where firearms are a tool, an implement used by the proprietor of business to get by. We must allow for that. We must not interfere with that unduly.

May I say as well that we must acknowledge that some people enjoy collecting firearms. Some people enjoy the shooting sports. Indeed, Canada has achieved distinction internationally through the skill of those athletes who train and excel at sport shooting. We must acknowledge and respect that interest and that skill. But those legitimate interests, while they are acknowledged and respected, must be carried on in a context that is consistent with public safety.

Consequently, Canadians firmly intend to safeguard and to reinforce the exceptional civility which has always been theirs. The legislative and political program entitled "Safe Home Safe Street" is testimony of this government's commitment.

These are the elements of the legislation that we bring forward today as Bill C-68: First, tough measures to deal with the criminal misuse of firearms; second, specific penalties to punish those who would smuggle illegal firearms; and third, measures overall to provide a context in which the legitimate use of firearms can be carried on in a manner consistent with public safety. In all of that, the universal registration of firearms is a fundamental strategy, a fundamental support system to allow us to achieve the objectives I have described.

I know that for many members and for many Canadians the prospect of universal registration is the aspect of this legislation which is the most controversial. In the months I have spent travelling the country and speaking with those who own, use and enjoy firearms lawfully, I have been told by many that they see registration as a point on which they are going to differ with this government.

May I deal directly with the issue of registration and how it is going to enable us to achieve the objectives of a safe and peaceful society, a more effective response to the criminal misuse of firearms and enhanced public safety.

I will begin with the proposition that we live in a society in which all manner of property is licensed, registered or regulated in some way. All manner of activities are regulated either by legislation or administrative action to achieve a level of orderliness which is desirable in a civilized society. In that context, where cars, pets, and property of all description are registered or recorded for purposes of tracing ownership or reflecting transfers, surely the prospect of registering firearms is rationally justified by a society that wants to achieve a level of order.

What is the connection between registration on the one hand and the efforts of police to fight crime on the other, or trying to achieve a safer society? From my inquiries, from everything I have read and all the discussions I have had, both with law enforcement officers and with members of the firearms community themselves, it seems to me that criminals derive their firearms from the underground market. They do not register their firearms. They do not buy them at a local dealership, fill out the forms, apply for the firearms acquisition certificate, take the courses or pay the fees. Criminals acquire their firearms in the underground market illegally.

Those who engage in street crime tap into a market that is fed from one of two sources: guns that are smuggled into Canada and therefore are here illegally, or guns that are stolen from lawful owners and then traded in the underground.

Suppose you are inclined to use a gun in a holdup or an assault. You can go to one of Canada's major cities and, out of the trunk of a car, behind an after hours club, or on the second floor of a certain downtown hotel, or at a suburban house, if you know someone who knows someone, you can by one of these guns illegally and put it to a criminal use.

Surely we must choke off the sources of supply for that underground market. Surely we must reduce the number of firearms smuggled into the country. Surely we must cut down on the number of firearms stolen and traded in the underground. How do we achieve that? Through registration.

The registration of all firearms will enable us to do a better job at the borders. We will never stop the smuggling of firearms entirely. There are 130 million border crossings a year. We cannot stop every vehicle and check every trunk and glove compartment. But we can do a better job than we have done in the past and registration will enable us to do it.

Last year approximately 375,000 firearms came into Canada. Almost all guns sold here are imported. We do not know where they are or how they got here. There is no control once they arrive. We know that guns leak from shipments that come in lawfully. Just last week in Toronto there was an arrest of someone who had been illegally selling guns that were legally imported.

Registration will enable us to record what arrives and track it to the point of sale into the hands of a lawful owner. Registration will enable us to stop the kind of leakage that now occurs, to reduce the incidence of people illegally selling that which is legally imported.

Along with other measures that the government proposes in relation to border controls, including enhanced inspection and enforcement, registration will enable us to address one of the two principal sources of guns for the criminal market in the underground.

As to the second source of guns, those stolen from lawful owners, last year approximately 3,800 firearms were lost or stolen by those who lawfully own them in Canada. In the years since 1974 a cumulative total of 65,000 firearms have been stolen or lost and not recovered.

What does this have to do with registration? The police contend, and I accept it as a matter of logic, that registration which obligates each of us to record the fact of our ownership of firearms will imbue the owners with a heightened sense of responsibility to comply with laws already on the books mandating safe storage. These might involve locking the triggers, keeping the ammunition separate, or keeping the firearms themselves in a locked case.

With compliance with those safe storage requirements the incidence of firearms being stolen, of someone breaking and entering into a person's house and finding a shotgun leaning against the closet wall or a handgun in the bedside table will diminish. A second important source for criminals and guns will be addressed.

There is more. Registration will reduce crime and better equip the police to deal with crime in Canadian society by providing them with information they often need to do their job. Let me provide a practical example for my colleagues in the House.

Two weeks ago in Victoria when I met with provincial and territorial ministers of justice, we talked about a number of amendments to the Criminal Code that might make it more effective. One of them had to do with criminal harassment or so-called stalking.

It was suggested an improvement might be to add to the panoply of penalties the court can impose when convicting a person of criminal harassment, an order prohibiting them from possessing firearms because we would be dealing now with someone who had been convicted of a crime which too often leads to violence.

That suggestion was made in the context of ministers, not all of whom agreed with universal registration. But when the question was asked: Assuming that we have an order against someone made by the court forbidding them from possessing firearms because they have been convicted of criminal harassment, how will we enforce that order? How will we know that all of the person's firearms have been surrendered? How will the police know what firearms to look for when they arrive to enforce the order?

Mandatory registration will provide a basis upon which the police can enforce that kind of order, which is commonly made in the courts when people have been convicted of such offences.

I have said in the House in the past and rely heavily upon the fact that preponderantly the police are in favour of universal registration. We can quibble about individual officers. I know it is not unanimous. However, the chiefs have been vigorously pressing for this legislation for many years.

The Canadian Police Association, through its executive, is supportive of these measures. Police forces and boards across the country are encouraging us to proceed with this legislation. I know there are police officers who see it differently, but preponderantly the police forces are in favour of these measures.

Victims groups, including CAVEAT, urge us to have universal registration. Priscilla de Villiers, the president of CAVEAT, lost a daughter in a dreadful tragedy. She was murdered by a man in respect of whom the police had investigations concerning firearms.

In the Jonathon Yeo case there was an inquest into Nina de Villiers' death. After spending months looking at the facts of that case, the jury at that inquest recommended universal registration of all firearms. Priscilla de Villiers has spoken out strongly in favour of that measure, explaining her conviction that it will help the police to deal with crime.

The point is broader still. Registration will assist us to deal with the scourge of domestic violence. Statistics demonstrate that every six days a woman is shot to death in Canada, almost always in her home, almost always by someone she knows, almost always with a legally owned rifle or shotgun. This is not a street criminal with a smuggled handgun at the corner store. This is an acquaintance, a spouse or a friend in the home.

What does this have to do with registration? Domestic violence by its very nature is episodic and incremental. Typically, somewhere along the line the court has made an order barring the aggressor from possessing firearms. When the police try to enforce that order, just as in the case of stalking, they do not know whether they have been successful or not. They do not know what firearms are there.

When firearms are registered, if it is necessary for a person to register and show proof of registration to buy ammunition, as it will be, the police will know what firearms are there. The police will be able to enforce those orders and lives will be saved.

Suicides and accidents provide another example. Last year, of the 1,400 people who died by firearms in Canada, 1,100 were suicides. I know there are those who say that suicide by its

nature will result in death no matter what controls are in place if the person is determined to take his or her life. No doubt that point has some force. However, too many of those suicides were by young people acting in a moment of anguish, acting impulsively because of a failed relationship, difficulty in the home, or problems at school.

If a firearm is not readily available, lives can be saved. If registration, as the police believe, will encourage owners to store firearms safely so those impulsive acts are less likely, the result may be different.

In the years since 1970, some 470 children have died in Canada as a result of accidents with firearms. If we can achieve safer storage through registration, if registration will provide us with a tool by which we can identify firearms owners, educate them about their obligations for safe storage and encourage them to comply, children's lives could be saved. Against this background what are the objections to registration? It is said that it will be unduly costly, both to the government and to the firearms' owners. Let us examine that contention, first, with respect to the government.

We have provided our estimate of the cost of implementing universal registration over the next five years. We say that it will cost $85 million. We have also said that we will put before the parliamentary committee, on which all parties sit, details of those calculations showing our assumptions and how we arrived at those figures. We encourage the members opposite to examine our estimates. We are confident we will demonstrate that the figures are realistic and accurate.

In so far as the cost to firearms' owners is concerned, the system of registration that we envisage if this legislation is enacted would commence next year with the registration of owners. Those who own firearms would be asked within five years to pick up a card, conveniently available in their communities, to identify themselves by name and address and to return it. They would then be sent a permit or a licence to own a firearm. In the first year of the five-year implementation period we expect that the cost to the firearms owner would be zero. If it is not zero, it would be a nominal amount in the range of $10.

The second phase of registration, the registration of the firearms themselves, would commence two years later in January 1998. Again firearms owners would be asked to fill out a card, which they would pick up in their communities, identify their firearms by make, model and serial number, to return it and we will send them a registration certificate for their firearms. Once again, this would be phased in over five years from 1998. Once again, in the first year of implementation, the cost would be zero, or if not zero a nominal amount in the range of $10 to register up to 10 firearms.

If we contrast the relative convenience of such a system-all we are asking of firearms owners is to fill out two cards and mail them in-with the advantages that responsible people say we will achieve through such a system, it seems that on any cost-benefit analysis registration is justified.

It is said that such a system will be complex and bureaucratic. Surely it is evident from the description which I have given that it will be just the opposite. We can take the opportunity of designing and implementing such a system in collaboration with provincial authorities, with the input of the firearms groups to eliminate irritants, to overcome paperwork burden, to simplify and streamline the system so that all of our objectives can be achieved at the same time.

It is crucially important, in my judgment, that as we debate this question of registration, in respect of which there are strongly held views on both sides, that we do so on the real facts. Let us confine ourselves to the reality of the situation. Let us not hear that the registration system will cost $100 per firearm. Let us not hear that it is a prelude to the confiscation by the government of hunting rifles and shotguns. Let us not contend that it will cost $1.5 billion to put in place.

That is the way to distort the discussion. That is the way to frighten people. Surely this debate must be carried out on the real facts. When the real facts are addressed it seems clear that the objectives of which I spoke at the outset can be achieved while respecting the legitimate uses of firearms. This can surely be done without imposing unduly on firearms owners through the introduction of universal registration for the reasons I have described.

So far as crime is concerned, the House will know from statements made earlier that the legislation contemplates a toughening of the penalties of the criminal misuse of firearms. It contemplates a change in the structure of the code to overcome the plea bargaining of charges relating to the use of firearms so that the penalties will be woven directly into the sections which provide for the offences themselves.

I have discussed with my provincial and territorial counterparts their collaboration in an effort to ensure that the laws we write in the Criminal Code will be enforced as such in the courts and that the attorneys general of the provinces will instruct crown attorneys, in any case in which the facts justify them, to seek the penalties that are included in this legislation as deterrents to the criminal misuse of firearms.

In the course of the work that I did in response to the Prime Minister's request that I prepare this legislation, I met with over 150 national and regional organizations of firearms owners and users. I met with hunters, farmers, target shooters, collectors, skeet shooters and athletes who achieved distinction for Canada in the Commonwealth and Olympic Games. I met with the

Shooting Federation of Canada. I met with all manner of local hunting and outdoors and wilderness clubs.

I want the House to know that I listened and I learned from that process. Elements of this package were changed substantially, moulded specifically, on what I heard from firearms owners.

For one thing, the House will see in Bill C-68 that we not only intend changes to the Criminal Code to toughen the sanctions but we also contemplate a separate statute called the Firearms Act to deal with the regulatory aspects in relation to firearms acquisition, use and ownership.

This is intended to meet the longstanding complaint from firearms owners that they were offended by having to consult the Criminal Code to determine the manner in which their private ownership of firearms was to be regulated.

I was asked why it was necessary to combine the regulation of private ownership of firearms with the criminal law. I responded by removing those elements from the code and embodying them in a separate statute called the Firearms Act.

There were also suggestions early on calling for the central storage of firearms or urban gun free zones. From my consultation with the firearms community I learned that such proposals were impractical and they were not pursued.

At the outset the government was urged to ban all handguns. We were told that three-quarters of Canadians, and indeed the majority of firearms owners, believed that all handguns in private ownership should be banned. We did not do that.

In the course of my meetings with the firearms groups, I was very much impressed with the ardour with which many Canadians approach the target shooting sports. They are highly skilled people, very law-abiding, conscientious in their pastimes and their hobbies. These Canadians want to continue in those sports.

Therefore this legislation acknowledges and allows those sports to continue. What we have done is remove from circulation over time, and to ban immediately after the enactment of the legislation, the importation and sale of those handguns inappropriate for target or sport shooting, the so-called Saturday night specials. These handguns are by their design and characteristics suitable for concealment, inexpensive to buy, easy to trade in the underground and not appropriate for target shooting because of their lack of accuracy.

We have also made it clear that for those who own handguns in the banned or prohibited categories, such owners will be able to use them in accordance with the requalification requirements in the statute and trade them to and from others in the same class. Consequently complaints that we were affecting the property value of owners' investments have been addressed.

May I also emphasize that as this bill goes to committee following second reading debate, it will go with my request that the committee look at specific changes in the law. First of all, to ensure that we are accommodating all of those sporting competitions with handguns, we have already made it clear that the .22-.32 calibre Walther used by Linda Thom at the 1984 Olympics will not be covered by the ban. We want the committee to take the advice of the International Shooting Union to determine whether there are other handguns that should be exempted so that legitimate sporting activities will not be threatened.

Second, I will ask the committee to examine the question whether there are black powder shooting events that might be affected by this legislation. It is not our intention in any way to limit historical re-enactments with the use of reproductions. We do not believe we have done that but we will ask the committee to look specifically at that question and to let us know whether additional technical amendments are required to make the meaning clear.

Third, we will ask the committee to look at the question of relics and heirlooms, recognizing that there are families and individuals who want to pass on to the next generation firearms that they have acquired and that have a specific sentimental or historical value to the family. That should be respected. We will ask the committee to fashion a way to allow it to happen consistently with the imperatives of public safety.

May I also observe that the introduction of universal registration will allow a rational way to control access to ammunition so that those who wish to buy ammunition will have to establish that they are properly registered to have and use a firearm.

Last, may I refer to the aboriginal communities who during the period of consultation were insistent that we respect, first, their treaty rights and second, their traditional and community way of life.

The firearms legislation will apply to aboriginal communities in exactly the same way as it applies to everyone else. The principles are identical. However, we have undertaken to respect treaty rights. We believe that this legislation is consistent with treaty rights because it is no more than the regulation by the federal government of hunting and other activities.

[An hon. member]

Two classes of Canadians.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Not two classes. Furthermore, we believe that this legislation can be implemented in a way that is sensitive to the traditional way of life of aboriginal people, that its administration can be decentralized to the community. We are committed

to working with the aboriginal communities across Canada to ensure that happens.

From time to time issues and questions arise which permit the legislature of a country to define what kind of future it wants for the country. It seems to me that on the subject of the regulation of firearms we have just such an issue. We have an opportunity for Parliament to make a statement about the kind of Canada that we want for ourselves and for our children, about the efforts we are prepared to make to ensure the peaceful and civilized nation that we have and enjoy and to demonstrate just who is in control of firearms in Canada. Is it the gun lobby or is it the people of this country?

Much reference is made in the House on the subject of polls. It was not polls that inspired this legislation. This legislation is based on the principles and objectives that I described at the outset. However, polls are useful from time to time to remind us just where the people stand on these issues. There is no doubt that these proposals enjoy the support of the vast majority of Canadians, rural and urban, in every region of the country. They see this legislation as an opportunity for us to make exactly the kind of statement I referred to about the kind of country we want, the kind of future we want and just how firearms should be acquired and used in Canada.

I commend this legislation to the House. I invite its attention to the principles of which we speak and I ask for the support of the House for those principles.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Madam Speaker, at last we have a bill on gun control, and we are very pleased. It was high time the Minister of Justice tabled his plan of action in the form of a bill. We are delighted to proceed with the real debate. No more delays, no more conferences and consultations. Now the debate can start on Bill C-68, which is supposed to be an innovative piece of legislation.

We in the official opposition are aware of the concerns of a public that is disturbed, and rightly so, about the proliferation of firearms and the shocking number of deaths caused by these weapons.

We do not criticize just for the sake of criticizing, although the Minister of Justice does not seem to agree. Our criticism is constructive. Basically, we support legislation that will tighten gun control.

Right from the start, I would like to stress the attitude of the Minister of Justice during the debate on gun control. It is always a pleasure to watch a politician who sticks to his guns.

That being said, although the Minister of Justice is to be commended, Bill C-68 is not a panacea. It will not deal with all the problems out there. In fact, I am not so much worried about what the bill contains as about what it does not contain. I will expand on this in a few minutes.

I can hardly ignore the behaviour of the minority pro-gun lobby, a minority that managed to give the impression that its extreme position is widely shared. The pro-gun lobby and their Reform Party friends have been piling on the speeches. They would have us believe that more is better. The warm welcome they gave the Minister of Justice when he visited Calgary says a lot about their allegiance and their cynical attitudes. Threats of civil disobedience, the sacrosanct right to own firearms and individual and collective rights are all part of their rallying cry.

They want the public to believe that a bill on gun control is worthy of a dictator like Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot. I even received a communication in my office in Ottawa, with a list attached of countries where genocide had been practised and the dates on which gun control legislation had come into effect in those countries.

These fervent supporters of the right to bear arms were trying to establish a link between gun control and the genocides that have tarnished the history of mankind. This is pretty sad. I never saw such a total lack of intellectual honesty. These people should be ashamed of spreading such monstrous lies. To claim that the Armenian genocide was a direct consequence of gun control legislation that came into effect 40 years earlier is not only absurd but insane.

I agree that these individuals are not representative of the majority of those who object to all forms of gun control. Reform Party members should check their ranks and flush out the extremists. Some spring cleaning would be in order.

I come back to the bill before us today. In the fall we criticized it and, again today, we decry the minister's hesitation. Since the minister has been promising us legislation on arms control for such a long time, we were expecting something more complete, I can assure you.

The Minister of Justice wanted to win everyone over by giving something to each of them. Reformers, the gun lobby, and a number of colleagues of the Minister of Justice are delighted with the increase in the minimum sentences for crimes committed with guns and the fact that current firearms owners have almost eight years' grace to comply with the requirements of the national registration system the government is proposing today.

Let us have a closer look at who should be celebrating: the gun lobby or those in favour of stricter arms.

First, the bill proposes major changes to the Criminal Code. In terms of sentences, the bill increases from one year to four years the minimum sentence an individual must serve for committing a crime with a firearm. The present section 85 of the Criminal Code provides for a minimum sentence of one year for anyone using a firearm to commit a criminal act.

The problem with section 85 is that only a third of the charges made under this section result in convictions. Lawyers on a case will use this section most of the time for plea bargaining. The Crown is satisfied with the few convictions, because, in return, it obtains a guilty plea for the principal offence, such as robbery or sexual assault.

The bill does not resolve this de facto situation. Minimum sentences are increased, but there is no mechanism to force lawyers to stop bargaining for guilty pleas. In addition, judges, generally, tend to follow a principle of combining the number of years a defendant has to serve. Nothing in the bill will change this practice.

I would even bet that they will continue to do it and in this way reduce the length of the sentence for major offences. In real terms, there may be no significant increase in the actual number of years that the person will have to serve. However, if judges stop giving concurrent jail sentences, the increase in the jail population could become another problem area. I will come back to this later.

Finally, section 85 is modified by the addition of a list of 10 violent offences which will be covered by the provision. We wonder whether the government really was serious when it drew up this list. Manslaughter, an unpremeditated crime, is on the list. However, armed assault is not. Does that mean that the punishment will be the same, whether or not the victim survives the assault? Forcible confinement is not on the list, but kidnapping and hostage are.

I also really have doubts about whether the increase in the minimum sentence provided for in section 85 will be a deterrent. I would like to point out that a working paper on section 85, in particular, and on minimum sentences, in general, prepared by the department of justice concluded that for the most part, the public does not know which offences have a mandatory minimum sentence.

In addition, the same document, which the Minister of Justice should have analyzed more thoroughly, also concludes that mandatory minimum sentences are very weak deterrents and have little impact on the incidence of major crimes. Robbery is an excellent example. Even worse, apparently juries are less inclined to render a guilty verdict if they know that the accused will have to serve a mandatory sentence for the offence.

Assuming that judges will not apply the principle of adding up the total number of years for multiple offences, prison populations will increase substantially as a result. Indeed, the minimum sentence of four years would be served after any other sentence imposed by the judge.

The Minister of Justice seems to believe, naively, that detention centres could accommodate this increase in the number of prisoners. He claims that the deterrence effect of his bill would lower the number of firearms offences. There is no way of knowing the impact of his reform bill on the number of future convictions.

We must bear in mind that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the minister wishes to increase minimum sentences stipulated under section 85 of the Criminal Code, he must realize that prison populations will increase thereby and that we do not have the necessary infrastructure to accommodate these new prisoners.

Let us turn our attention to the warning issued by Professor Pierre Landreville of the Université de Montréal. In an article published in Le Devoir of December 23, Mr. Landreville explains the danger of such legislation, and I quote: ``Some 1,500 persons are convicted each year in Quebec and could possibly be given a minimum sentence of four years in addition to the sentence for the major offence. The population of Quebec penitentiaries, currently about 4,000 prisoners, would nearly double in the first four years after implementation of this measure''.

If prison populations increase, so too will the related costs.

Will the minister honestly tell taxpayers how much his reform will cost us, knowing that, just to keep a prisoner in jail, it cost on average, in 1992-93, $56,000 in a maximum security facility and $36,000 in a medium security one? Can the pro-gun lobby still say it is satisfied with the increase in the minimum sentence stipulated in section 85?

Moreover, for those of us in favour of gun control, can we claim this as a victory? Certainly not. The bill establishes a separate piece of legislation providing for a licensing system regarding the possession and use of firearms, and a national system for the registration of all firearms. Non-compliance with the provisions dealing with licensing and registration will be an offence under the Criminal Code. Going against the wishes of several of his Liberal colleagues, the justice minister decided to maintain sanctions in the bill.

Moreover, Bill C-68 provides for new offences and hefty penalties for the illegal importing of firearms and gun trafficking. In addition to the compulsory minimum sentence, individuals convicted of one of the ten designated violent offences will be prohibited for life from possessing a restricted or prohibited weapon. Up to now, everything is fine and these provisions are the direct result of our representations.

Also, under bill C-68, from now on, importing or selling .25 and .32 calibre handguns and handguns that have a barrel 105 mm in length or less will be prohibited. This ban affects roughly 58 per cent of all handguns in Canada.

Concurrently with Bill C-68, the justice minister has banned several types of military and paramilitary weapons by an order in council taking effect on January 1st, 1995. A total of 21 types of military and paramilitary firearms will now be prohibited, and they include more than 200 models. However, as the Minister of Justice said, the cornerstone of his bill is the registration system, a computerized record of names and particulars of all gun owners, along with a description of all the firearms they own.

On the eve of the new budget of the Liberal government, the proposals of the Minister of Justice raise a number of questions on the cost of implementing such a system at the national level. The minister was saying, on December 6, in Alberta, that it would cost at least $85 million to implement. He said that the cost would be spread over five years and that, afterwards, the system would generate revenues. The day before yesterday, during a press conference, he went back on his word and said that the cost would actually be spread over seven years. He demonstrated to the people that he has no idea of the possible cost of such a system and who should bear it.

Unfortunately, we can no longer rely on the minister's estimates since, in two months, he added two years to the amortization period. In a few months, will come before the Standing Committee on Justice to tell us that the costs will never be recovered?

We always asked for a self-financing system. How is the Minister of Justice going to finance his system? He said that gun owners would not have to pay a cent to get their new registration certificates. Current owners will simply have to pay renewal fees of $60 in five years.

He also states that new certificate holders will only have to pay a small fee of around $10. How can the minister claim that system costs will be paid off over five or seven years? Why not 10 years?

In the meantime, he is asking the provinces to loosen their purse strings to help him pay the bill. He is asking the provinces to help him administer a system whose costs are unknown. This means that not only gun buyers and owners but all taxpayers will pay.

As I said earlier, to the costs associated with the system we must add those associated with a possible increase in prison population. The Minister of Justice can manipulate numbers as much as he likes, but the fact remains that the costs of his bill will be supported by the entire population.

Another flagrant example of the lack of rigour in calculating costs is a January 19 memorandum from the office of the justice minister stating that the government hopes but cannot confirm that current gun owners will not have to pay fees to obtain certificates of ownership.

The memorandum goes on to explain that fees will go up over time to encourage early registration and that the government is hoping that fees will not be charged during the first year.

Terms like "hoping" and "cannot confirm" suggest that the minister does not know the first thing about arithmetic. He has no idea of how much ordinary taxpayers will have to pay. He does not have any idea of the costs associated with Bill C-68 and how much gun owners will have to pay. We are basically demanding that the Minister of Justice's mathematics be clarified.

Finally, can we really talk about a victory, as suggested by the minister, when we know that all this great system will not become operational until the next century? I doubt it.

On the subject of regulations, the justice minister has missed a golden opportunity to practice what he preaches. Regulations respecting the storage, display, handling and transportation of certain firearms is a legal jumble that his department would have trouble sorting out. These regulations have been in force since January 1, 1993, but a great many people are still not aware of their existence, let alone their requirements. Even the police, who are responsible for enforcing them, says they are unfamiliar with these regulations.

When I questioned him in the House on November 15, the Minister of Justice answered, and I quote: "I well understand that the challenge we face is to make Canadians understand and comply with safe storage requirements."

I reviewed his action plan and his bill inside out, but nowhere is any revision of these regulations to be found. Yet, the Minister of Justice claims universal registration of firearms is necessary to make owners more responsible vis-à-vis storage and transportation. How can gun owners be asked to be more responsible and comply with regulations that they do not know about or do not understand?

The danger with inadequate regulations is that improperly stored firearms and ammunition are readily available to an individual who yields to a suicidal or violent impulsion. On the other hand, if firearms and ammunition are not readily available, chances are the person will calm down. Statistics on deaths caused by firearms are alarming. In 1991, suicides accounted for 77 per cent of the 1,445 deaths caused by firearms. In 1992, out of 732 registered homicides in Canada, 246, or 34 per cent, were committed with a firearm.

In the last ten years, most homicides were committed with shotguns or hunting rifles. Three times out of four, a spouse is killed by a rifle or a shotgun.

In Quebec, from 1990 to 1992, there were 1,293 deaths caused by firearms, which represents an annual average of 425. In that same province, suicides account for three out of four deaths

caused by firearms, for a total of about 300 suicides per year. These statistics cannot be overlooked.

The inquest conducted in Montreal, last November, by coroner Anne-Marie David shed some light on the deficiencies, and the resulting dangers, related to inadequate regulations. Coroner David's report was released on January 26.

Throughout the hearings, the most frequent criticisms were related to the inconsistency of the current regulations. Lieutenant Guy Asselin of the Quebec provincial police testified and said: "The regulations are not necessarily clear, which does not help those who have to enforce them, nor those who want to comply with them".

The spokesperson for the Quebec police and fire chiefs' association, Mr. Richard Côté, made essentially the same comment when he said: "Police officers do not know how to interpret the law. You almost have to be a legal expert". Mr. Côté added that these regulations were included in the program of only two of the nine CEGEPs offering the police technology course, and that the related training lasted only a few hours.

If police officers themselves cannot understand the regulations, how can the Minister of Justice claim that his bill will increase safety at home? Police officers are not the only ones who do not know the regulations. Those who are directly concerned, and I am referring to the owners of firearms, hardly know there is such a thing as regulations on the safe storage of firearms.

A Léger & Léger poll has confirmed these disturbing facts. The poll was conducted from September 1 to September 13, 1994, among 515 owners of firearms residing in Quebec. When asked whether they knew about these regulations, only 53 per cent of respondents thought there was a law on storage, 31.8 per cent said no and 15.1 per cent were undecided. It is clear that, in addition to a national registration system, a thorough review and targeted advertising are necessary.

The Minister of Justice forgets that sometimes simple solutions are the most effective. If the government made it compulsory for businesses to supply individual locking systems for every firearm sold in this country, the problem would be practically solved.

The minister keeps repeating that registration of owners and firearms is just like getting a driver's licence or a licence for your car. If the minister had pursued his analogy, he would have realized that cars are sold with locking systems. I may have a driver's licence, but that does not mean I can start my neighbour's car without an ignition key.

My point is that every firearm sold in this country would have a device that would make it totally harmless. The owner would then be under the obligation to keep the firearm locked at all times, failing which he would be breaking the law. In this way, gun collectors would be able to exhibit their pieces, and in season, hunters would be able to practise their favourite sport.

I support the recommendations of coroner David, in which she urged the Minister of Justice to amend the wording of the regulations for storage, display and safe transportation of firearms, to make them more consistent and ensure they are more readily understood by the general public.

Similarly, the Minister of Justice should pay particular attention to the recommendation that the regulations be changed to oblige people selling guns to lock or disarm all weapons intended for sale and to prevent them from storing restricted firearms anywhere but in a vault and prevent the delivery to a customer of a firearm not equipped with a safety catch.

In conclusion, I believe that setting up a national registration system is a positive step, subject to my earlier comments. I must, however, say again that I find it most regrettable that the Minister of Justice bowed to pressure from the gun lobby. By spreading owner and weapon registration over eight years, the minister is stating very clearly that he does not want the system implemented during his term of office. Furthermore, I believe the minister backed off significantly from his original plan of action by permitting the purchase and sale of handguns between owners of the same type of weapons.

Finally, it appears that the minister has not yet completed his consultations and that he is now leaving it up to the Standing Committee on Justice. He wants the committee to look at the following questions: Should we allow the owners of prohibited firearms to bequeath these weapons to their children? Are there handguns that may be used for target practice? Will the use of replicas of powder fired guns be allowed at celebrations?

The minister should have assumed the consequences of his choices himself rather than force the parliamentary committee to make some of the unpleasant decisions.

In closing, we hope the minister still has sufficient leeway to take our recommendations into consideration.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to begin this debate before I get into the text of my intervention by touching on a couple of comments the justice minister made.

This is the most confusing time for the justice minister to bring new legislation on gun control into the picture. The reason is that we have court decisions, one in Alberta, clearly indicating the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell are invalid.

Until such time as that decision is overturned, the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell and the orders in council passed by this minister, becoming effective January 1, are considered to be invalid and are not being enforced. I also understand that B.C. has taken the same position on these orders in council. A court of Queen's Bench decision renders those orders in council invalid.

We have asked the justice minister in this House if he would not consider waiting until that particular case moves through the appeal courts and a final determination is made. The justice minister has refused to accept that advice and is now heaping orders in council upon orders in council that the courts in this land are saying are invalid.

It also means that all the actions taken by the police and the court under the authority of the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell's government have been illegal. All of the seizures, confiscations and destruction of weapons without compensation are considered illegal.

Unless the judge's decision is overturned they will remain in that state. We have asked the justice minister to please wait until such time as this confusion within the courts has been cleared up. He has failed to do so.

I would like to touch on the point the justice minister raised about registration of rifles and shotguns where an individual will simply have to go to the appropriate place within his community, pick up a card and fill in the make, model and serial number.

I was talking to a firearms inspector in Alberta. I suggested this was the method that would be introduced. He said it is utter nonsense. I asked why and he said you cannot register what you do not inspect, otherwise you are going to have a system that is absolutely unreliable. I asked: "What do you mean?" He said: "Unless you inspect the identifying features on a firearm and the firearm inspector records that within the system they cannot be sure of the accuracy of that information".

The justice minister knows as well that there are many firearms with the same serial number, the same identifying features. The suggestion by the justice minister that this is going to be easy and inexpensive is simply nonsense. It is just not accurate.

I cannot support this gun control legislation because the centrepiece of it, the registration of all rifles and shotguns, will not reduce the criminal use of firearms.

The justice minister has not told us how these measures will reduce the criminal use of rifles and shotguns. The police chiefs have not told us. The Coalition for Gun Control has not told us how the registration of rifles and shotguns will reduce their criminal use. No one who supports the registration of rifles and shotguns has told us, told the House or told anyone how it will reduce the criminal use of these firearms. They have not because they cannot.

Handguns have been registered in the country and their use strictly controlled for 60 years. Yet we see an increase in the criminal use of handguns in Canada today. If handgun registration does not reduce the criminal use of these particular firearms, will the justice minister please tell Canadians how the registration of rifles and shotguns will have a different effect?

Death from shotgun wounds occurs in four primary areas: in criminal activity, in domestic disputes, in suicides and in accidental use of firearms. The imposition of a firearms registration system will do nothing to reduce deaths in any of these areas. The gun control bill does not address or reduce the cause of domestic disputes or suicides. Certainly registration is not the answer.

The justice minister has stated in the House, as he did today, that every six days a woman is shot to death in the country. This is a horrific statistic. Unless the causes of domestic dispute that produce these statistics are addressed nothing will change. The registration of firearms will not change this statistic and nothing within the minister's bill will address the cause of domestic disputes.

Safe storage of firearms may reduce suicides and accidental shooting. However these regulations are already in force. I have heard no one to whom I have spoken who is opposed to those regulations. They are common sense and they support them.

Over 80 per cent of the people in my riding of Crowfoot, Alberta, who responded to a survey indicated they did not believe the banning of handguns or the registration of rifles and shotguns would reduce the criminal use of firearms. The question that was asked directly was: "Do you believe that the registration of rifles and shotguns will reduce the criminal use of these firearms?" Over 80 per cent said no.

The other question was: "Do you believe an outright ban of handguns will reduce the criminal use of these firearms?" Over 80 per cent said no, but 94 per cent said that they were in favour of imposing harsher penalties upon the criminal users of firearms.

I believe during the period of review and debate on Bill C-68 as more Canadians become apprised of the details of the legislation and as people recognize the ineffectiveness of these gun controls in reducing crime and the enormous cost to the taxpayer, opposition will mount. I am reminded of the support for the Charlottetown accord when it first came out. Over 70 per cent of western Canadians were willing to support it but the more they learned about it, the more support for that accord plummeted like a stone.

Canadians have repeatedly urged the government to do something about crime, to strengthen the Young Offenders Act, to reform sentencing procedures and the parole system that continues the early release of violent offenders into society. These people have witnessed innocent victims being murdered, raped and viciously assaulted by offenders released into society by a system of justice that is preoccupied with the rights of the criminal, not the protection of the law-abiding citizen.

I might add that the registration of rifles and shotguns is aimed at the law-abiding citizen. I will touch upon this point later in my speech. If they should deliberately neglect to register their shotgun or firearm they are subject to 10 years in jail, which is draconian, absolutely absurd.

The sentencing provisions of the bill suggest the justice minister and the Liberal government are getting tough on crime. This is nothing more than a pretence. The bill contains provisions for a minimum of four years imprisonment for the criminal use of a firearm. However section 85 of the Criminal Code already allows for an additional sentence from one to fourteen years for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime. This law has not been enforced rigorously at all in some areas of the country.

Crown prosecutors have used their discretion either to ignore this law or to plea bargain it away. The justice minister admitted shortly after he submitted the proposals in the legislation that his new bill would not eliminate the discretion of the prosecutors to continue to ignore or plea bargain away the new four-year minimum sentence. There is no assurance of that.

We look upon this portion of the bill as a step in the right direction. However it would not be needed if section 85 were enforced and it will be useless if the crown continues to plea bargain away the new four-year minimum sentence.

In addition to the lack of enforcement of section 85, lenient sentences and early parole are contributing to a violent society. Who is responsible for this? I ask this question of the House: Are the parliamentarians who created the laws that now spew violent offenders on to the street before they have served their full sentences not responsible for the death of the Melanie Carpenters of the country? Are those same parliamentarians not responsible for creating a situation where the rights of the criminal supersede the rights of the victim and the victim's family? Are they not responsible for the growing fear of violence experienced throughout the country?

I want the people of Canada to know that when the justice minister had the opportunity to vote for a safer society or the early release of murderers into society, he voted for the violent criminal instead of a safer society. The Minister of Justice voted against eliminating section 745 from the Criminal Code which grants first degree murderers the right to apply for early parole. The justice minister in effect voted for the criminal and against eliminating violence and against the Melanie Carpenters of the country. So did the entire caucus, except for the Minister of Transport.

The Minister of Transport stood with 24 of his Liberal colleagues and voted with the Reform Party to eliminate section 745 which allows for the early release of convicted murderers into society. I might add that during that vote when I looked over at Bloc members I did not see one of them standing against the early release of violent criminals back into society.

If the minister is sincere about fighting crime we recommend that he do the following: increase the maximum jail terms for all violent crimes including firearms crimes, implement a zero tolerance policy for criminal offences involving firearms, ensure that charges are laid in all firearm crimes and that plea bargains are not permitted, provide judges with sentencing options including no parole for all violent crime and provide for progressively more severe penalties for repeat violent offenders and firearms offenders.

Until the Minister of Justice implements these get tough measures he is only pretending to get tough on crime. Until the minister can demonstrate to us that the sentencing provisions of the bill will deter criminals from using a firearm during the commission of a crime we cannot support the bill because that we understand is what the bill ought to be doing. It is not going to do that.

Until the minister can assure Canadians unequivocally that the registration of rifles and shotguns and the banning of 58 per cent of the handguns currently sold in Canada will reduce the criminal use of firearms we will work to defeat this convoluted and expensive piece of legislation.

Reform members, like many Canadians, support gun control legislation based upon common sense. We fully support any and all gun regulations that will enhance public safety by reducing the criminal use of firearms. We say that present firearms legislation is adequate.

What the government ought to be doing is focusing its attention on the criminal use of firearms, giving Bill C-17 an honest chance and evaluating the impact it has upon these problems. It was recommended by the Auditor General in his 1993 report that before the government moves forward with any further gun control legislation a careful and thorough analysis of Bill C-17 and its impact upon the whole issue should be made. This we submit has not been done and it should be done.

The expensive and ineffective system of licensing and registration rifles and shotguns described within Bill C-68 simply does not make sense. It will not reduce the criminal use of these

firearms. It will not reduce domestic violence and it will not prevent suicide.

The minister has not provided us with any statistical justification for the registration of rifles and shotguns. How can Canadians, in the absence of such information, be confident that universal registration will reduce the criminal use of firearms and thereby make society safer?

The minister defends the bill by claiming that the chiefs of police support him and have requested the registration of all rifles and shotguns. We ask this question: Why does the minister not also embrace the chiefs' position on capital punishment and on the elimination of section 745 of the Criminal Code which grants murderers the opportunity for early parole?

It is clear to me that he does not really believe that when we have a law enforcement problem we go to the chiefs of police. It seems the justice minister is only going to the chiefs of police when he needs them to support a particular bill.

We cannot afford ineffective legislation particularly in the area of criminal justice. We must have sound and proven controls in place that ensure public safety.

The minister states that the cost of the legislation will be only $85 million. However the cost of registering a single handgun is estimated today to be $82 and over $100 in Quebec. It is estimated that there are approximately six million rifles and shotguns to be registered in Canada.

Taking the lowest of these two fees, the cost for registration alone comes to $492 million. If the minister is suggesting that the registration of a rifle or a shotgun will be substantially less than the present cost to register a handgun, has the government been wasting taxpayers' money on the handgun registration system? Does this imply that the registration of long guns will not be as rigorous and thorough and therefore less effective than the handgun registration system?

I might add that the Terence Wade report clearly demonstrates that the expensive handgun registration system is defective and almost useless as a crime fighting tool. This is a report that we had to wring out of the justice department.

Let us deal with the banning of handguns and the hand held crossbow.

Where is the information and where are the statistics that the Minister of Justice used to justify such a draconian measure? That is what we ask for. Certainly anyone who responds to common sense will respond to those kinds of statistics that justify such measures. We have not seen them. We have not seen any of the statistics upon which much of this legislation is based.

The minister's original proposals banned the handguns used by our World Cup competitors. When asked in the House of Commons to exempt the .32 calibre handgun which is used in those competitions he said he most certainly would not. However, Bill C-68 does provide an exemption for these handguns and I compliment the minister for taking a second look at that issue.

It is clear, though, the minister's consultative process was badly flawed in spite of his presence that he was taking expert and technical advice from all interested groups. In connection with that, in the back of one of the pamphlets which was put out with the proposals, was a list of all the organizations and groups which the Minister of Justice met with on firearms. They are listed by way of province. There are eight listed for Alberta.

However, I have been advised that the Nosehills Gun Club and the Provost and District Fish and Game Association never met with the justice minister; yet that is what the document claims. Further inquiries indicated that they sent a letter to the justice minister expressing their concerns about the gun control proposals. They did it by way of someone else who was coming to Ottawa to meet with the justice minister. They had not received a reply to their letter, which was sent by courier, as of the date on which I spoke with them.

I submit that the registration of rifles and shotguns does not and will not protect Canadians. If the registration of firearms did we would have no problem with handguns and the criminal use of handguns. Every firearms control aimed at law-abiding gun owners such as the banning of handguns and the registration of firearms is an assurance to criminals that their victims and their potential victims are becoming more and more defenceless and helpless.

It has been proven by various sources that banning a product, including firearms, does not prevent criminals from getting these items from the black market. Repeatedly governments in this country have learned that prohibitive or restrictive measures lead to an underground market where people thrive on the challenge of obtaining something illegally and where ruthless entrepreneurs profit tremendously.

This bill clearly indicates that those Canadians who so adamantly oppose registration and may defy the minister and his law will not go unpunished. Under Bill C-68 these people will be subjected to a maximum ten-year penalty, a penalty which is equivalent to those imposed on some murderers in this country. What comes to mind is Mr. Lortie who went into the Quebec legislature and murdered three people and wounded 13 others. Now he is out after serving 10 years. The justice minister wishes to equate anyone who deliberately neglects to register their shotgun or rifle with that kind of prison term. That is absurd. It is wrong. It is unconscionable. It ought to be deleted from the bill before it goes any further and I would ask the minister to do that.

In addition, this bill creates one penalty for those who in ignorance of the law fail to register their firearms and another much more serious penalty for those who deliberately neglect to

register their rifle or shotgun. The Reform Party believes that existing controls on gun ownership are more than enough and that no further controls of this type are necessary to ensure public safety. We also believe that no amount of gun control on firearm ownership can stop criminals from acquiring guns by illegal means.

In conjunction with the regulations we recommend these following features: decriminalize minor violations respecting storage, display, handling and transportation of firearms; decriminalize those offences that are more of an administrative matter than any criminal attempt to violate a law; make all firearm regulations, including orders in council, subject to review and approval by Parliament, and let us have no more of these orders in council that are not viewed by the elected representatives of the people being passed into law; simplify the firearms acquisition certificate renewal process.

I would like to end my speech today using the words not of members on this side of the House but those of members from across the way. On November 5, 1991 the Liberal member for Kenora-Rainy River said when the House was debating Bill C-17: "What we are debating is just what it means to the law-abiding citizen, the individual who feels that this piece of legislation does absolutely nothing to the criminal element that we as members of Parliament are supposed to be dealing with. We are not supposed to be restricting severely law-abiding citizens who are not the problem at all. We have suggested to law-abiding citizens of this country that we cannot trust them to do the right thing".

On the same date the Liberal member for Willowdale said: "There has been almost no suggestion and certainly no evidence that it is legitimate gun owners and members of gun clubs who have created the problem of gun related deaths in Canada. It seems to me that this bill as it now reads is dealing not with the fundamental issue of controlling the criminal use of guns, it is penalizing people who have proven in the past that they are part of the solution and not part of the problem of gun related deaths in Canada. This bill is very deficient in that it is not fair. People have over the years acquired a number of guns. Many of these guns are going to be taken away from them by this bill without compensation". It certainly applies to this bill.

The member further stated: "It is expropriation without compensation. You cannot do that in terms of people's homes and cars. Surely this is not fair. Let us not pretend that we are dealing with the root cause of gun related deaths in Canada and the harm that guns can cause Canadians. It does not address the real problems so that we as a Parliament will have to come back to deal with those issues not too many years from now".

I have news for the member for Willowdale. You are back, your party is back and, like the previous government, is still not dealing with the problem, certainly not the cause of the problem.

Finally, we have the words of the member for Haldimand-Norfolk: "I believe this is nothing but a bill to hoodwink the Canadian people into believing that the government is concerned about trying to do something about gun control when it clearly does not. This bill addresses none of these uses of a firearm except by placing more stringent conditions on the acquisition of an FAC. It fails to address the real problems in society. It gives Canadians a false sense of security that the government is actually doing something to stop crimes when it is not. This bill seems designed to disarm, overregulate and financially devastate the honest Canadian citizen. It will redefine Canadians as criminals and punish them severely for things like paperwork. I suggest that in this bill the government is encouraging an underground network of illegal guns".

These members were all speaking against Kim Campbell's Bill C-17 which did not restrict and confiscate law-abiding citizens' guns to the same extent as the current bill before us will or threatens to.

I am glad that so many members on the other side of the House share the same common sense opinions expressed on this side. I sincerely hope that these members continue to express these views despite the pressure from within their caucus to do otherwise.

I would like to tell this House and make a commitment to all Canadians that a Reform government will repeal any ineffective, costly legislation such as Bill C-68.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Madam Speaker, regarding the last comment by my Reform colleague, I can understand why the Reform Party will never form the government. It would be going against the wishes of 95 per cent of Canadians.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[An hon. member]

Which survey?

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lachine—Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

At the last biennial-

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)]

Order. The hon. member.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lachine—Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

At least they should show courtesy. If they do not agree, they should show courtesy. We listen to them. We do not agree with them, but we listen.

At the last biennial convention of the Liberal Party in May 1994 the women's commission of the Liberal Party presented a resolution asking for tighter gun control laws in Canada. I felt very privileged to be asked to second that motion which was adopted by unanimous vote of our party then. That same day the

Prime Minister in his address at the end of the convention made a very strong commitment to gun control legislation.

I would like to quote his words: "I would like to thank the women's commission in particular for having tabled an excellent resolution and strengthening firearms legislation. I believe that there is no place for firearms on our streets or playgrounds and I believe that the time has come to put even stricter measures in place to achieve this goal. I will be asking my Minister of Justice to examine your resolution very closely and to draft tough gun control legislation. I hope we have the support of all parties for this tough gun control. I know the Bloc Quebecois supports gun control and Preston Manning and the Reform Party are certainly talking a lot about crimes. I hope they will support these restrictions because tough talk is easy. What Canadians want and what we must provide is tough action".

At this point I would like to pay special tribute to the Minister of Justice. He has been patient in an exemplary fashion. He has heard. He has listened. He has crossed Canada to hear groups that were for gun control legislation and those violently opposed to gun control legislation.

He has heard not only from police chiefs but from community groups, from sports and gun clubs and any number of citizens of Canada who felt one way or another about this legislation. Eventually the time comes when decisions have to be made.

I thank him for his courage, his tenacity, his perseverance in bringing forward Bill C-68. What is more important is that he has told us time and time again that this is only part of a much broader picture, that crime prevention is not ensured by gun control legislation alone, that several measures must be taken together so that there is a reversal of attitudes in our society so that crime does not continue to be the menace it is today in our streets, in our villages and in our towns.

The whole crime prevention package is far broader than gun control legislation. It includes sentencing reform. It includes corrections and parole reform. It includes, as we have done, amendments to the Young Offenders Act. It included a Canadian crime prevention council which was launched last year.

More important, it includes broad social reform. In our red book we have tried to portray a holistic approach to society, to social reform, because unless we prevent the social causes that are the very root of crime in our society we will never eradicate crime no matter what legislation we put forward, no matter how tough the legislation, no matter how tough the jail sentences.

We have to reverse attitudes, create a new type of society in which we eradicate the root causes of crime: poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunity. This is what we are doing to approach social questions in a holistic fashion so that there is not only the tough legislation on gun control and crime but also the addressing of the root causes that lead to crime.

The intention of Bill C-68 is not to penalize or hinder legitimate gun owners. Not at all. In fact it recognizes the legitimate right of gun owners to use them for sport or for their livelihood. It recognizes the treaty rights for aboriginal people in Canada. At the same time it does recognize a profound reality. That reality is very simple. Guns are lethal weapons and they kill.

In fact, some of the opponents of gun control have tried to portray this as an urban versus rural debate. I suggest it is not. In fact, statistics accumulated for the period between 1980 and 1989 showed that in those 10 years there were 63 per cent more deaths by guns in towns with a population of under 5,000 than in towns with a population of over 500,000. Therefore it is not a big city versus small city problem. It is a problem of the safe handling of guns.

Guns impact especially on the lives of women. In the case of violence against women 42 per cent of all acts of murder committed on women have been done with guns. Of those guns 80 per cent of them are rifles used by their owners to batter and murder their wives.

We have to do something about this. We have to attack the problem, certainly the long term problem, by looking at the root causes of the social evils of society. At the same time we have to take short term measures to ensure that crime does not pay and that guns will not kill.

I would like now to pay a special tribute to two young women I know well-especially one of them-, Heidi Rathjen and Wendy Cukier, two young women who quit lucrative jobs. Heidi Rathjen is an engineer. She is now working almost on a volunteer basis to achieve stronger legislation on gun control. Heidi Rathjen said recently in an interview: Had we had stricter legislation, Marc Lépine and Valery Fabrikant might not have been able to do what they did. Were there even a slight chance that stronger legislation would have prevented Marc Lépine and Valery Fabrikant and all the others who committed senseless, horrible crimes from doing so, then that legislation would have been worthwhile, a thousand, a hundred thousand times over.

Michael Hogben was one of the four individuals killed by Valery Fabrikant. Michael was one of my friends. I worked very closely with him at Concordia University. We worked together on the Esther Goldenberg lectures, and it was on the eve of these lectures, which Michael was to organize, as he always had in the past, that he was killed. I remember being at the Hogben apartment with Esther Goldenberg after his funeral. I remember seeing Mrs. Hobgen there, whom I had not met before, and the two young Hobgen girls, and thinking that a scholarly person, a person with so much to give to society, not only erudite but a person of character, exceptionally high-minded, well-liked by everyone, his students and colleagues, was killed in the prime of

his life, senselessly, by someone who had managed, under existing legislation, to obtain not one but two firearms.

We must recognize that the legitimate use of firearms is acceptable, but when used maliciously, firearms can cause irreparable, irreversible damage.

How can one measure the damage of a ruined life, the nightmare experienced by the surviving family, who relive the event every day and every night, because they can never forget? This is not death due to illness, it is violent death brought about by the use of a firearm. And that is a price no society can afford.

I know the debate on firearms is heated. I know the whole question of registration is especially controversial.

[English]

Yesterday in question period and again today our friends from Reform were questioning the cost of $85 million. They saw that as being too much. One Reform member said yesterday that we should send that money to cancer research or not spend it.

I wonder if the Reform members have calculated the cost to society of a simple trial, of putting people in jail, of police control for people who have used guns. The cost is far greater not only in terms of money, but certainly in terms of life lost.

What is the value of a life? Is it $1 million, $2 million, $80 million, $85 million? I wonder how much the lives of the 14 young women killed at the polytechnique were worth. I wonder how much Michael Hogben's life was worth. They are not statistics. We do not measure their lives, their souls, their beings in monetary terms.

It seems to me that society has not only the right but a duty to make sure we take every possible step we can as legislators to try to eradicate the ills caused by guns. If registration helps, even if it is not watertight, even if there are loopholes and even if we cannot prove statistically that it will work 100 per cent of the time, if it makes committing crime more difficult, then it would be worth it and would be money spent well.

Registration will certainly improve the control of the flow of firearms across borders. It will help the police trace firearms used in crime. Moreover, it will place the responsibility on the individual himself or herself. When someone has to go through a registration process, be it for a car, a boat, or any possession, it ties a special responsibility to that person to care for that possession.

Registration will be an immense deterrent. In fact, it is no accident that a great number of community organizations, police organizations and all anti-crime community organizations and institutions are heavily in favour of registration. That includes the great majority of people in the province of Alberta where most Reform members are from. British Columbians should be proud because it is the case in B.C. as well.

If registration and gun control legislation were only to save one life, I suggest it is worth it. I know the Bloc members share our view on this and I thank them for it. On this side we hope, and are convinced, that if it saves many lives, then Bill C-68 will be a major piece of legislation. Not only will it be because it is Liberal legislation, the work of this government and this Minister of Justice, but because it is a piece of legislation that society at large needs and wants.

Today we are in the process of getting it. Once again, I pay tribute to, thank and am very grateful to the Minister of Justice for having brought this bill forward.

I hope the great majority of us here will reflect the majority view of Canadians at large, and 95 per cent of those in Quebec, who believe that gun control legislation is not only needed but it was needed yesterday. It is a great piece of legislation. It is a forward piece of legislation and I will support it with great conviction.

[Lee Morrison, Reform, Swift Current—Maple Creek—Assiniboia, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I get the impression from the rhetoric over there, the violence of it and the great emotion I heard that this is exactly the type of approach to gun control that makes people in this country frightened. The reasoned arguments which were expressed by the justice minister, although I emphatically disagree with them, do not carry the same connotations as what came across the aisle from the hon. member for Lachine-Lac-Saint-Louis.

If one is to take seriously what he was saying, I am quite convinced that this is the type of thinking, this rabble rousing, this fanning the emotions of people which will ultimately lead to the confiscation of private arms in this country. That is why people are so concerned.

The hon. member refuses to deal with real numbers. He says that he thinks registration will be a deterrent. Those were his words. We do not pass legislation of this magnitude simply because we think something.

He quoted the chiefs of police, as did the Minister of Justice. I would remind both members that when gun control was being discussed in this House in 1976, the police chiefs presented a brief to the Standing Committee on Justice. In that brief they emphatically stated that registration would serve no useful purpose in the control of crime. Whether the organization had-

[The Speaker]

My colleagues, we will have seven or eight minutes remaining after question period and the hon. secretary of state will have the chance to speak at that time.

It being 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 30(5), the House will now proceed to Statements by Members pursuant to Standing Order 31.

The Budget

[Anna Terrana, Liberal, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the budget is quickly approaching. Canadians are not prepared to pay more taxes. They are in fact letting all of us in government know that they are prepared to react very negatively should taxes be increased.

However, Canadians are prepared to do with less services. They are asking us to cut services and programs and to ensure a fair taxation system so the middle class does not bear an undue burden of taxes.

Being a Liberal is not easy in these times. While we know we must bring down the deficit, we also know that our party has shown compassion over the years and has taken care of individuals in need.

We must and will continue to ensure that we are able to care for all Canadians, both now and in the future. I am committed to working toward these fundamental values. We recognize that difficult choices must be made if we are to ensure Canada's well-being and prosperity.

We are listening to Canadians. We hear that a fair taxation system should be introduced, cuts to services should be implemented, that duplication should be avoided and most important, that those in need should not suffer through this exercise but rather be strengthened by it.

Deficit Reduction

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, even though the reason interest rates have gone up is that the Minister of Finance has not taken any deficit-fighting action for a year now, he is bragging that he will be able to reach the gigantic deficit goal of $39.7 billion.

The minister's strategy is extremely obvious. To reach the enormous deficit goal of $39.7 billion, he plays with numbers at the expense of the unemployed. In fact, he is using the surplus in the unemployment insurance fund to reduce the government's deficit.

The Minister of Finance not only is using this surplus to reduce this year's deficit, but now that 11 months have passed by, we can see that he also overestimated the 1993-94 deficit by close to $4 billion in his last budget. All that to make people believe that the situation is improving. In reality, the minister is playing all kinds of games to mask his lack of action in the fight against the deficit.

National Literacy Action Day

[Darrel Stinson, Reform, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as one who left school too early and returned to get my grade 12 at the age of 28, I wish to mention a new study.

We have heard that 30 per cent of Canadian youth leave school. However a school leavers survey from September 1993 shows this has improved 18 per cent of 20-year old Canadians not completing high school.

Employment is related to school leaving, with employment in excess of 20 hours per week a big factor. Despite long hours in blue collar and service jobs, hundreds in my riding of Okanagan-Shuswap are attending an alternate education program called "The Open Door", open until 9.30 p.m. weekdays. Since it started three years ago school leavers have completed 338 courses.

Last week I had the pleasure of speaking there. Today on National Literacy Action Day I applaud "The Open Door" and the hard working people walking through it to a better future.

Airports

[Glen McKinnon, Liberal, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the House is aware that the Ministry of Transport has introduced new long term regulations and guidelines for local regional airports.

To increase understanding I was active in facilitating an airports conference in Brandon, Manitoba on February 7 and 8, 1995. The main conference objective was to bring together stakeholders from central Canada to discuss the challenges of assuming ownership and operation of community airports.

I can confidently say the majority of 91 participants left the Brandon Airports Conference respecting the minister's efforts of establishing a more affordable, integrated, efficient and competitive transportation system that still remains safe, secure and accessible.

My thanks to the inspired participants, informed speakers and my staff for making the conference such a great success.

House Of Commons

[John Harvard, Liberal, Winnipeg—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians were shocked yesterday when they learned that almost all Reform Party MPs did not make time to attend solemn

observance of the 30th anniversary of Canada's flag. In fact I saw only one Reformer there.

Perhaps it is because they wanted to stay in their offices preparing to sing our national anthem on the floor of the House of Commons. Perhaps they were just too busy getting ready for another event which took place last evening.

I was one of many members who accepted an invitation to attend a reception by the Canadian Restaurant Association, a wonderful event where guests are served tasty delights from every Canadian province.

Included in the crowd were many Reform Party MPs who appeared to be having the time of their lives. Their usual sanctimony was gone. There was no evidence of the parsimonious, frugal, grassroots politicians. They came to eat, drink and be happy. On that, I think everybody can agree.

Canadian Flag

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday was the 30th anniversary of our maple leaf flag.

Our flag is a proud and distinct international symbol. It is recognized and greeted with warmth all over the world. Canadians can be seen wearing the maple leaf on their backpacks while travelling abroad. Even some Americans have been known to wear our flag while travelling.

The maple leaf flag unites us from coast to coast. The flag is one of the things that encompasses all Canadians despite our varied regional characteristics.

Yesterday in communities all across Canada there were flag raising ceremonies, speeches and school assemblies. Canadians from all races and religions celebrate the flag together.

I congratulate and welcome the three new members elected to represent their constituencies and our flag. Today I ask all my colleagues to reflect on the significance of our maple leaf flag and its meaning to all Canadians.

30Th Anniversary Of Canadian Flag

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the minister of heritage made a very clumsy attempt at camouflaging the federal government's prereferendum propaganda by literally plastering Quebec with posters on the 30th anniversary of the Canadian flag, at a cost of over $1 million.

Today's Toronto Star confirms that more than half of these propaganda posters are for Quebec, despite the minister's statement that only 30 per cent of them would be put up in that province.

Why will the minister not simply admit what the federal government's goal is in lavishly celebrating this anniversary, in using all available means to try to influence Quebecers on the eve of the referendum and in trying to artificially instill in them a fleeting feeling of Canadian identity?