Madam Speaker, I would like to begin this debate before I get into the text of my intervention by touching on a couple of comments the justice minister made.
This is the most confusing time for the justice minister to bring new legislation on gun control into the picture. The reason is that we have court decisions, one in Alberta, clearly indicating the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell are invalid.
Until such time as that decision is overturned, the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell and the orders in council passed by this minister, becoming effective January 1, are considered to be invalid and are not being enforced. I also understand that B.C. has taken the same position on these orders in council. A court of Queen's Bench decision renders those orders in council invalid.
We have asked the justice minister in this House if he would not consider waiting until that particular case moves through the appeal courts and a final determination is made. The justice minister has refused to accept that advice and is now heaping orders in council upon orders in council that the courts in this land are saying are invalid.
It also means that all the actions taken by the police and the court under the authority of the orders in council passed by Kim Campbell's government have been illegal. All of the seizures, confiscations and destruction of weapons without compensation are considered illegal.
Unless the judge's decision is overturned they will remain in that state. We have asked the justice minister to please wait until such time as this confusion within the courts has been cleared up. He has failed to do so.
I would like to touch on the point the justice minister raised about registration of rifles and shotguns where an individual will simply have to go to the appropriate place within his community, pick up a card and fill in the make, model and serial number.
I was talking to a firearms inspector in Alberta. I suggested this was the method that would be introduced. He said it is utter nonsense. I asked why and he said you cannot register what you do not inspect, otherwise you are going to have a system that is absolutely unreliable. I asked: "What do you mean?" He said: "Unless you inspect the identifying features on a firearm and the firearm inspector records that within the system they cannot be sure of the accuracy of that information".
The justice minister knows as well that there are many firearms with the same serial number, the same identifying features. The suggestion by the justice minister that this is going to be easy and inexpensive is simply nonsense. It is just not accurate.
I cannot support this gun control legislation because the centrepiece of it, the registration of all rifles and shotguns, will not reduce the criminal use of firearms.
The justice minister has not told us how these measures will reduce the criminal use of rifles and shotguns. The police chiefs have not told us. The Coalition for Gun Control has not told us how the registration of rifles and shotguns will reduce their criminal use. No one who supports the registration of rifles and shotguns has told us, told the House or told anyone how it will reduce the criminal use of these firearms. They have not because they cannot.
Handguns have been registered in the country and their use strictly controlled for 60 years. Yet we see an increase in the criminal use of handguns in Canada today. If handgun registration does not reduce the criminal use of these particular firearms, will the justice minister please tell Canadians how the registration of rifles and shotguns will have a different effect?
Death from shotgun wounds occurs in four primary areas: in criminal activity, in domestic disputes, in suicides and in accidental use of firearms. The imposition of a firearms registration system will do nothing to reduce deaths in any of these areas. The gun control bill does not address or reduce the cause of domestic disputes or suicides. Certainly registration is not the answer.
The justice minister has stated in the House, as he did today, that every six days a woman is shot to death in the country. This is a horrific statistic. Unless the causes of domestic dispute that produce these statistics are addressed nothing will change. The registration of firearms will not change this statistic and nothing within the minister's bill will address the cause of domestic disputes.
Safe storage of firearms may reduce suicides and accidental shooting. However these regulations are already in force. I have heard no one to whom I have spoken who is opposed to those regulations. They are common sense and they support them.
Over 80 per cent of the people in my riding of Crowfoot, Alberta, who responded to a survey indicated they did not believe the banning of handguns or the registration of rifles and shotguns would reduce the criminal use of firearms. The question that was asked directly was: "Do you believe that the registration of rifles and shotguns will reduce the criminal use of these firearms?" Over 80 per cent said no.
The other question was: "Do you believe an outright ban of handguns will reduce the criminal use of these firearms?" Over 80 per cent said no, but 94 per cent said that they were in favour of imposing harsher penalties upon the criminal users of firearms.
I believe during the period of review and debate on Bill C-68 as more Canadians become apprised of the details of the legislation and as people recognize the ineffectiveness of these gun controls in reducing crime and the enormous cost to the taxpayer, opposition will mount. I am reminded of the support for the Charlottetown accord when it first came out. Over 70 per cent of western Canadians were willing to support it but the more they learned about it, the more support for that accord plummeted like a stone.
Canadians have repeatedly urged the government to do something about crime, to strengthen the Young Offenders Act, to reform sentencing procedures and the parole system that continues the early release of violent offenders into society. These people have witnessed innocent victims being murdered, raped and viciously assaulted by offenders released into society by a system of justice that is preoccupied with the rights of the criminal, not the protection of the law-abiding citizen.
I might add that the registration of rifles and shotguns is aimed at the law-abiding citizen. I will touch upon this point later in my speech. If they should deliberately neglect to register their shotgun or firearm they are subject to 10 years in jail, which is draconian, absolutely absurd.
The sentencing provisions of the bill suggest the justice minister and the Liberal government are getting tough on crime. This is nothing more than a pretence. The bill contains provisions for a minimum of four years imprisonment for the criminal use of a firearm. However section 85 of the Criminal Code already allows for an additional sentence from one to fourteen years for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime. This law has not been enforced rigorously at all in some areas of the country.
Crown prosecutors have used their discretion either to ignore this law or to plea bargain it away. The justice minister admitted shortly after he submitted the proposals in the legislation that his new bill would not eliminate the discretion of the prosecutors to continue to ignore or plea bargain away the new four-year minimum sentence. There is no assurance of that.
We look upon this portion of the bill as a step in the right direction. However it would not be needed if section 85 were enforced and it will be useless if the crown continues to plea bargain away the new four-year minimum sentence.
In addition to the lack of enforcement of section 85, lenient sentences and early parole are contributing to a violent society. Who is responsible for this? I ask this question of the House: Are the parliamentarians who created the laws that now spew violent offenders on to the street before they have served their full sentences not responsible for the death of the Melanie Carpenters of the country? Are those same parliamentarians not responsible for creating a situation where the rights of the criminal supersede the rights of the victim and the victim's family? Are they not responsible for the growing fear of violence experienced throughout the country?
I want the people of Canada to know that when the justice minister had the opportunity to vote for a safer society or the early release of murderers into society, he voted for the violent criminal instead of a safer society. The Minister of Justice voted against eliminating section 745 from the Criminal Code which grants first degree murderers the right to apply for early parole. The justice minister in effect voted for the criminal and against eliminating violence and against the Melanie Carpenters of the country. So did the entire caucus, except for the Minister of Transport.
The Minister of Transport stood with 24 of his Liberal colleagues and voted with the Reform Party to eliminate section 745 which allows for the early release of convicted murderers into society. I might add that during that vote when I looked over at Bloc members I did not see one of them standing against the early release of violent criminals back into society.
If the minister is sincere about fighting crime we recommend that he do the following: increase the maximum jail terms for all violent crimes including firearms crimes, implement a zero tolerance policy for criminal offences involving firearms, ensure that charges are laid in all firearm crimes and that plea bargains are not permitted, provide judges with sentencing options including no parole for all violent crime and provide for progressively more severe penalties for repeat violent offenders and firearms offenders.
Until the Minister of Justice implements these get tough measures he is only pretending to get tough on crime. Until the minister can demonstrate to us that the sentencing provisions of the bill will deter criminals from using a firearm during the commission of a crime we cannot support the bill because that we understand is what the bill ought to be doing. It is not going to do that.
Until the minister can assure Canadians unequivocally that the registration of rifles and shotguns and the banning of 58 per cent of the handguns currently sold in Canada will reduce the criminal use of firearms we will work to defeat this convoluted and expensive piece of legislation.
Reform members, like many Canadians, support gun control legislation based upon common sense. We fully support any and all gun regulations that will enhance public safety by reducing the criminal use of firearms. We say that present firearms legislation is adequate.
What the government ought to be doing is focusing its attention on the criminal use of firearms, giving Bill C-17 an honest chance and evaluating the impact it has upon these problems. It was recommended by the Auditor General in his 1993 report that before the government moves forward with any further gun control legislation a careful and thorough analysis of Bill C-17 and its impact upon the whole issue should be made. This we submit has not been done and it should be done.
The expensive and ineffective system of licensing and registration rifles and shotguns described within Bill C-68 simply does not make sense. It will not reduce the criminal use of these
firearms. It will not reduce domestic violence and it will not prevent suicide.
The minister has not provided us with any statistical justification for the registration of rifles and shotguns. How can Canadians, in the absence of such information, be confident that universal registration will reduce the criminal use of firearms and thereby make society safer?
The minister defends the bill by claiming that the chiefs of police support him and have requested the registration of all rifles and shotguns. We ask this question: Why does the minister not also embrace the chiefs' position on capital punishment and on the elimination of section 745 of the Criminal Code which grants murderers the opportunity for early parole?
It is clear to me that he does not really believe that when we have a law enforcement problem we go to the chiefs of police. It seems the justice minister is only going to the chiefs of police when he needs them to support a particular bill.
We cannot afford ineffective legislation particularly in the area of criminal justice. We must have sound and proven controls in place that ensure public safety.
The minister states that the cost of the legislation will be only $85 million. However the cost of registering a single handgun is estimated today to be $82 and over $100 in Quebec. It is estimated that there are approximately six million rifles and shotguns to be registered in Canada.
Taking the lowest of these two fees, the cost for registration alone comes to $492 million. If the minister is suggesting that the registration of a rifle or a shotgun will be substantially less than the present cost to register a handgun, has the government been wasting taxpayers' money on the handgun registration system? Does this imply that the registration of long guns will not be as rigorous and thorough and therefore less effective than the handgun registration system?
I might add that the Terence Wade report clearly demonstrates that the expensive handgun registration system is defective and almost useless as a crime fighting tool. This is a report that we had to wring out of the justice department.
Let us deal with the banning of handguns and the hand held crossbow.
Where is the information and where are the statistics that the Minister of Justice used to justify such a draconian measure? That is what we ask for. Certainly anyone who responds to common sense will respond to those kinds of statistics that justify such measures. We have not seen them. We have not seen any of the statistics upon which much of this legislation is based.
The minister's original proposals banned the handguns used by our World Cup competitors. When asked in the House of Commons to exempt the .32 calibre handgun which is used in those competitions he said he most certainly would not. However, Bill C-68 does provide an exemption for these handguns and I compliment the minister for taking a second look at that issue.
It is clear, though, the minister's consultative process was badly flawed in spite of his presence that he was taking expert and technical advice from all interested groups. In connection with that, in the back of one of the pamphlets which was put out with the proposals, was a list of all the organizations and groups which the Minister of Justice met with on firearms. They are listed by way of province. There are eight listed for Alberta.
However, I have been advised that the Nosehills Gun Club and the Provost and District Fish and Game Association never met with the justice minister; yet that is what the document claims. Further inquiries indicated that they sent a letter to the justice minister expressing their concerns about the gun control proposals. They did it by way of someone else who was coming to Ottawa to meet with the justice minister. They had not received a reply to their letter, which was sent by courier, as of the date on which I spoke with them.
I submit that the registration of rifles and shotguns does not and will not protect Canadians. If the registration of firearms did we would have no problem with handguns and the criminal use of handguns. Every firearms control aimed at law-abiding gun owners such as the banning of handguns and the registration of firearms is an assurance to criminals that their victims and their potential victims are becoming more and more defenceless and helpless.
It has been proven by various sources that banning a product, including firearms, does not prevent criminals from getting these items from the black market. Repeatedly governments in this country have learned that prohibitive or restrictive measures lead to an underground market where people thrive on the challenge of obtaining something illegally and where ruthless entrepreneurs profit tremendously.
This bill clearly indicates that those Canadians who so adamantly oppose registration and may defy the minister and his law will not go unpunished. Under Bill C-68 these people will be subjected to a maximum ten-year penalty, a penalty which is equivalent to those imposed on some murderers in this country. What comes to mind is Mr. Lortie who went into the Quebec legislature and murdered three people and wounded 13 others. Now he is out after serving 10 years. The justice minister wishes to equate anyone who deliberately neglects to register their shotgun or rifle with that kind of prison term. That is absurd. It is wrong. It is unconscionable. It ought to be deleted from the bill before it goes any further and I would ask the minister to do that.
In addition, this bill creates one penalty for those who in ignorance of the law fail to register their firearms and another much more serious penalty for those who deliberately neglect to
register their rifle or shotgun. The Reform Party believes that existing controls on gun ownership are more than enough and that no further controls of this type are necessary to ensure public safety. We also believe that no amount of gun control on firearm ownership can stop criminals from acquiring guns by illegal means.
In conjunction with the regulations we recommend these following features: decriminalize minor violations respecting storage, display, handling and transportation of firearms; decriminalize those offences that are more of an administrative matter than any criminal attempt to violate a law; make all firearm regulations, including orders in council, subject to review and approval by Parliament, and let us have no more of these orders in council that are not viewed by the elected representatives of the people being passed into law; simplify the firearms acquisition certificate renewal process.
I would like to end my speech today using the words not of members on this side of the House but those of members from across the way. On November 5, 1991 the Liberal member for Kenora-Rainy River said when the House was debating Bill C-17: "What we are debating is just what it means to the law-abiding citizen, the individual who feels that this piece of legislation does absolutely nothing to the criminal element that we as members of Parliament are supposed to be dealing with. We are not supposed to be restricting severely law-abiding citizens who are not the problem at all. We have suggested to law-abiding citizens of this country that we cannot trust them to do the right thing".
On the same date the Liberal member for Willowdale said: "There has been almost no suggestion and certainly no evidence that it is legitimate gun owners and members of gun clubs who have created the problem of gun related deaths in Canada. It seems to me that this bill as it now reads is dealing not with the fundamental issue of controlling the criminal use of guns, it is penalizing people who have proven in the past that they are part of the solution and not part of the problem of gun related deaths in Canada. This bill is very deficient in that it is not fair. People have over the years acquired a number of guns. Many of these guns are going to be taken away from them by this bill without compensation". It certainly applies to this bill.
The member further stated: "It is expropriation without compensation. You cannot do that in terms of people's homes and cars. Surely this is not fair. Let us not pretend that we are dealing with the root cause of gun related deaths in Canada and the harm that guns can cause Canadians. It does not address the real problems so that we as a Parliament will have to come back to deal with those issues not too many years from now".
I have news for the member for Willowdale. You are back, your party is back and, like the previous government, is still not dealing with the problem, certainly not the cause of the problem.
Finally, we have the words of the member for Haldimand-Norfolk: "I believe this is nothing but a bill to hoodwink the Canadian people into believing that the government is concerned about trying to do something about gun control when it clearly does not. This bill addresses none of these uses of a firearm except by placing more stringent conditions on the acquisition of an FAC. It fails to address the real problems in society. It gives Canadians a false sense of security that the government is actually doing something to stop crimes when it is not. This bill seems designed to disarm, overregulate and financially devastate the honest Canadian citizen. It will redefine Canadians as criminals and punish them severely for things like paperwork. I suggest that in this bill the government is encouraging an underground network of illegal guns".
These members were all speaking against Kim Campbell's Bill C-17 which did not restrict and confiscate law-abiding citizens' guns to the same extent as the current bill before us will or threatens to.
I am glad that so many members on the other side of the House share the same common sense opinions expressed on this side. I sincerely hope that these members continue to express these views despite the pressure from within their caucus to do otherwise.
I would like to tell this House and make a commitment to all Canadians that a Reform government will repeal any ineffective, costly legislation such as Bill C-68.