Debates of Feb. 22nd, 1995

Federal Public Service

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what guarantee can the minister give people that laying off thousands of public servants will not as in the past give rise to a substantial increase in contracting-out which does not necessarily allow for savings but which is highly conducive to government patronage?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, it gives us no joy to be downsizing the public service. However, as a result of the programs and services that we must cut in order to meet our deficit reduction targets, there are people we will have to ask to leave.

We will give them every opportunity to find other jobs within the public service before they are put on layoff status. Certainly in terms of contracting out, I can assure the hon. member that it and temporary help and other means will be explored as a way of keeping our employees who want to stay before we allow for additional contracting out and other provisions.

We value the public service. We value the kind of service that is provided to Canadians by the people we employ.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if yesterday's announcement of public service layoffs was designed to quell fears and rumours, it was a dismal failure. Today the government has rubbed salt in the wounds of the public service by increasing the size of the cabinet just one day after announcing 45,000 job cuts in the public service.

The Minister responsible for Public Service Renewal put together a top level team of managers to tell him where to make cuts in the public service. Did he also put together a team of frontline workers to tell him where to make appropriate cuts in management?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is clear that members of the third party speak from both sides of their mouths. On the one hand they ask us to reduce the expenditures of government; on the other hand they complain when we do exactly that by reducing the size of the public service.

What we have done with the public service is in fact the best treatment that could be given. We have introduced the possibility for them to have either early retirement or cash outs. We have made it much easier for civil servants who cannot be employed any more to leave the public service in a humane way.

[Chuck Strahl, Reform, Fraser Valley East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, obviously we have a problem with a growing cabinet in a high

level of top heavy government at a time when it is making cuts at the bottom and in the front lines.

For instance 20 per cent of all public servants, that is 48,000 people, make more than $50,000 a year. There are 48,000 managers looking over the shoulders of the people who actually deliver the services.

Will the government tell us the proportion of management versus frontline cutbacks that we can see in this upcoming budget so that we can make sure that we are hammering the management, not just gutting the frontline services to Canadians?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, the one addition to this side of the House is worth all of the ones and more on that side of the House.

With respect to the downsizing we are going to be carefully monitoring the situation at the different levels. If there is any disproportionate amount at any given level, then certainly we will take corrective action. We are focusing on programs and services, not on people. As a consequence, people at all levels will be part of the downsizing.

Canadian Unity

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

The Privy Council published a document, which the Financial Post obtained, asking all businesses to use symbols of Canadian unity in their advertisements. The document recommends several guidelines that businesses can follow to defend the federal regime.

Is it to be understood that this government, which is subsidizing the Council for Canadian Unity in order to obtain a list of those who are taking part in the regional commissions on sovereignty, is now enlisting businesses, with the help of the Privy Council, to lead a campaign of fear reminiscent of the one Quebecers were subjected to in 1980?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I do not see how the opposition can criticize letting social groups express themselves freely, when they have wasted $5 million of their and our taxpayers' money on regional commissions whose only aim is to disseminate sovereignty propaganda.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was talking about businesses that have contracts with the government. The $5 million is five to six times less than what the Spicer circus cost us two to three years ago.

What assurances can the minister give this House that the government is not compiling a register of businesses co-operating in this effort, for some future consideration?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, once again, I find the opposition's questions very out of place. We are simply helping social and business groups in Quebec who wish to get information on the costs of separation. We are not intimidating banks and financial institutions which are not on our side.

Railways

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Okanagan Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources.

The country is ripe for a massive shut down in the railways, jeopardizing significant sectors of the economy. I notice he is turning to the hon. minister. We are not quite sure who is in charge there right now.

Will the minister assure us that the government will not present legislation to this House that will prevent the use of replacement workers during a labour strike and that there will be no prohibition of management employees, regardless of where they are located, replacing striking workers?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, concerning the problems at CN, CP and VIA, the conciliator's report was sent to the parties this morning. We earnestly hope they will sit down and discuss their differences. We truly hope that the parties themselves will find a solution. After all, they know the industry.

As for the issue of replacement workers, we are looking into the situation and will report as soon as possible.

[Werner Schmidt, Reform, Okanagan Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased the initiation of the hon. minister to this House has been in answer to a question, but it was no answer, it was another approach.

Since the 1950s the federal government used back to work legislation as the last resort in transportation related labour disputes. Each time it had significant costs to the Canadian economy as a whole.

When will the ministry acknowledge that neither back to work legislation nor anti-scab legislation adequately protects the

economy from bitter transportation strikes and when will she seek effective impartial alternatives like binding final arbitration as a position?

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, we will give specific answers to specific questions, and it is definitely premature to consider back to work legislation at this time.

Regional Development

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Last week in the House, the Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec confirmed that his strategy for regional development would be based on providing assistance to small business. After cutting the budget of the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec, the minister indicated that the new approach to helping small business would consist in providing consulting services.

Since the FORD-Q no longer has a budget for providing financial assistance to small business, will the Prime Minister admit that the Department of Industry, in other words, the minister responsible for regional economic development in Ontario, will now be responsible for the federal strategy for regional development in Quebec?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister responsible for regional development in Quebec is the Minister of Finance. Obviously, the Minister of Finance has a very good working relationship with the Minister of Industry.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, would the Prime Minister agree that, as far as regional development is concerned, the FORD-Q, which no longer has a budget, has become an empty shell and will only be used to promote the visibility of the federal government in the regions and to set national standards for regional development, while ignoring the priorities of the Quebec government in this respect?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, throughout Quebec, people are very pleased to note the presence of federal agencies that are there to help them.

Members Of Parliament Pensions

[Ian Murray, Liberal, Lanark—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Treasury Board.

The minister said he would let us know on or before budget day what he was doing about reforming the MPs' pension plan. The budget is next Monday. Can the minister tell the House if he has made any progress toward honouring his commitment to reform MPs' pensions?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, mighty soon has arrived. The government has agreed to a package of reforms on MP pension plans and the bill will be introduced by the end of April as an amendment to the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act. Further information on the details will be available for members of the House later this afternoon.

The government will live up to its red book commitments. It will end double dipping for both MPs and members of the other house. It will put a minimum age in place on the basis of the Lapointe commission recommendation of age 55. It will provide for members to have a one-time only opting out-

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

I would quit while I was ahead if I were you.

Corrections

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last year I was asked by constituents to investigate whether male prison guards stripped female prisoners during the recent misguided and ill conceived raid in the prison for women. I was assured at that time that no male prison guard took part in the stripping of female prisoners and that only female officers were present.

My question is for the Solicitor General. Now that a videotape clearly shows that male officers were present, will this minister please tell me why his department officials lied to a member of Parliament?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have already informed the House, we have two contradictory reports, one from the correctional service internal investigation and one from the correctional investigator.

Because they differ in facts and interpretation, we are convening a further independent inquiry. That will throw the light we are seeking on this difficult matter.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was assured at that time there were no male guards involved in that.

The minister stated that his government would bring honesty and integrity back to the dealings between government and Canadians.

How can Canadians trust that the results of any investigation by this minister's department will not be more lies instead of what Canadians expect?