Debates of Feb. 6th, 1995

Social Program Reform

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I must say that the Minister of Human Resources Development has done a terrific job and that he has the confidence of all his cabinet colleagues. Never has there been so much consultation on a fundamental reform that will bring about changes in Canada.

Naturally, the Bloc Quebecois will promote the status quo. But these changes are under way, and the committee is expected to table its report at three o'clock this afternoon. So, it is a bit much to ask a minister to prepare for such changes before the committee report has even been tabled. To adopt such a stance in this House does not show much respect for the democratic process.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there certainly is no shortage of consultations. But the minister himself said on television last week that his reform plans had to be delayed because Canada's financial situation makes any real reform of social programs impossible. That is what the minister himself, true to his own way of showing respect for the democratic process in this House, stated outside this House.

Does the Minister of Human Resources Development recognize that social program reform has been cast aside not only because of the budget but mostly because of the Quebec referendum, as the minister knows that his reform will affect thousands of Canadians and Quebecers who are among the most disadvantaged in society?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is engaging in some very unfortunate speculation.

At no time did I say the reforms were postponed. There may have been a headline writer or two who made that judgment but I certainly did not say it. We said that we had to have the committee report that we will have today. We will examine the recommendations in the report very carefully.

We will begin discussions with the provinces in terms of their putting forward a proper new blueprint and design. There will be a budget which we know will establish a new sense of economic confidence in the integrity of the country. That is the best platform and basis for undertaking social reform.

We will be following our timetable which is to bring in new legislation dealing with social issues this fall. It is exactly the timetable we laid out a year ago and it is a timetable we are still on.

We would only hope that the Bloc Quebecois and other members in the House will learn and be willing to participate in what should be and can be one of the most important initiatives in the country.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my third question is for the Minister of Finance, who will have the final say on social program reform. In that sense, he is the real human resources minister.

Can the Minister of Finance give us the assurance that his next budget will not, once again, target the unemployed, with further cuts in benefits and increasingly restrictive eligibility requirements for UI, as his first budget did?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Following the last budget, Mr. Speaker, more than 438,000 jobs were created in Canada. This is the best performance in a decade. I am quite confident that we will see the same results after the next budget.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Let me just say quickly that, contrary to what the Minister of Finance just said, it is not 400,000 jobs, but an annual average of 261,000 jobs, a total which has been verified over and over again. Rumours are spreading about the upcoming budget.

It is even being said that a document from the Department of Finance proposes that the federal government completely withdraw from financing some social programs without, of course, transferring to the provinces equivalent financial resources allowing them to take over from the federal government. I remind you that Ottawa has deprived the Quebec government of more than $12 billion since 1982 by cutting into transfer programs.

Does the Minister of Finance confirm his intention of transferring responsibility for some social programs by putting an end to his financial contribution without full financial compensation for the provinces, which would effectively amount to offloading his deficit onto the provinces once again?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, not only are the figures I just quoted accurate, but I might add that 82,000 jobs were created in Quebec in 1994, the best performance since 1988.

Moreover, am I to understand from the question that the hon. member is in favour of the status quo? We, on the other hand, stand for change and for reform.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if we compare December with December, the figures are accurate, but the Minister of Finance is supposed to know that the figures we are referring to represent the annual average, which is 261,000 jobs, including 70,000 in Quebec.

Does the Minister of Finance not realize that such actions on his part would be totally irresponsible since he would be reducing transfer payments for education, health and social assistance, leaving the provinces with the extra burden while imposing national standards that are more and more restrictive under the circumstances? Is this what you call flexible federalism?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, it is quite interesting that the member opposite and I are engaged in a debate as to whether the job creation record of the government in its first year of operation is the best record in five years or the best record in 10 years. But it is the best record we have seen in one heck of a long time.

The Minister of Human Resources Development made it very clear when he embarked on the program of social security reform that we intended to bring it into the nineties, that we intended to make social security reform a very important part of the job creation capacity of the country and a very important part of the overall program of the government.

I support what the minister has done. He has had the courage to deal with fundamental and far reaching changes. I find it very difficult that a party opposite is so rooted in the status quo, in the 1940s, that it fails to understand what the Canada of the future means.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge, AB]

At the beginning of the period I said welcome to 1985 because in 1985 they had very long questions and very long answers. But in 1995 I am sure we are going to shorten both. The hon. member for Beaver River.

The Economy

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are glad to be here in the first period.

Canadians are among the highest taxed people in the world. Over 50 per cent of our pay cheques go to the tax man in one form or another. That is more than food, shelter and clothing combined. That would be more than enough but evidently it is not enough for this finance minister. He seems ready to add to our crippling tax load in this month's budget.

Canadians are not going to take it any more. Their message is no tax increases, period. Will the Prime Minister listen to Canadians and immediately rule out any tax increase in this month's budget?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, members of the Reform Party are very desperate. They set the target there to be in the news because they cannot really attack the government.

The hon. member should be patient-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

No, they cannot. Now they say that we will increase the taxes. Even I do not know. The budget will be later in the month. I will discuss that with the Minister of Finance.

Again the Reform Party will have to recognize that the Minister of Finance last year predicted that growth would be 3 per cent. It turned out to be 4.2 per cent. Inflation has been zero. Unemployment went down from a prediction of 11.1 per cent to 9.6 per cent.

We have a big problem, the debt. In the previous nine years before we arrived the previous government accumulated $300 billion of its own debt. We have a problem with that. We all recognize it. We will do what we said we would do in the red book. We will meet our target of 3 per cent of GDP next year.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, aiming at a target of going $25 billion per year in the hole is hardly considered noble.

The Prime Minister says to wait until the budget. That is of little comfort to Canadians. Why should home buyers who have seen their monthly mortgage rates go up over $200 wait until the budget? Canadians want this government to act now. They have wanted it to act for over a year.

The finance minister is not dealing with abstract numbers. He is dealing with the lives of real people, not just balance sheets.

Will the Prime Minister send a clear signal to Canadians and tell them that their tax burden will not be increased by his government in its upcoming budget?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, nobody can say what will be in the budget until it is tabled in the House of Commons. It will be before the end of the month. It is going to be another good budget through which this government will meet its targets.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when it comes to putting our national house in order, leadership should come from the top. We have seen precious little leadership from this government.

After 18 months the gold plated MP pension is still in place. The bureaucracy is still spending wildly on new fax machines, office renovations and computer software. Over 100 loyal Liberals have sallied up to the trough to collect their government patronage positions. The government has the nerve to ask Canadians to pay more money into taxes.

Wait until the budget is one thing. What about these practical steps? When will this government start leading by example? When will the minister reform the MP pensions and put the brakes on out of control government spending?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, one party accuses us of cutting too much, the other one wants us to cut deeper. I am confident that when the budget is tabled, the Liberal Party will, as always, find a middle ground and will not make indiscriminate cuts, nor go to the other extreme of refusing to control government spending.

We gave a clear idea of where we stand in the last budget and we will do it again in the upcoming one.

Post-Secondary Education

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Last Thursday, Quebec's National Assembly passed a resolution denouncing proposed federal cuts in post-secondary education and asking the federal government to withdraw from that sector and give Quebec the tax points equivalent to the level of Ottawa's current financial contribution to that sector.

Given the differences of opinion of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Human Resources Development, can the Prime Minister tell us if his government will give a favourable reply to the National Assembly's request?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it would be very important for the hon. member to relay the message he has just delivered to colleagues in the Government of Quebec. Just before Christmas, as he will well know, it announced it will be cutting $1.5 billion from health services, social services and education.

It would seem to me that if any government is going to take its responsibility, the question should be asked of the provincial Government of Quebec.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the Minister of Human Resources Development that the motion was unanimously approved; in other words, it was also supported by the Quebec Liberal Party.

Are we to understand that, by refusing to provide a clear answer, the federal government persists in wanting to eliminate cash transfer payments and instead allocate part of these funds to the Canada Student Loans Program, without any regard for the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces over education?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, again they should wait for the budget. To wonder whether the government will do this or that is to speculate. A budget will be tabled and the hon. member will have the opportunity to look at it. I find it unbelievable that, at a time when it is being rumoured that there will be more room to maneuver and more freedom of action for the provinces, the Bloc Quebecois wants to maintain the status quo. That makes me very happy indeed.

Taxation

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, this government has had 16 months to do nothing and it did. The Canadian Manufacturer's Association told the Minister of Finance that governments do not create jobs, customers do.

This government is talking about increasing taxes to the customers, taking money out of their pockets. Does the Minister of Finance not realize that increasing taxes will only kill jobs in this country?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much the hon. member's question. I know that he is a very sincere member and he is very sincere in the questions he asks.

One likes to check what other governments have done. It was very interesting that the Government of Alberta, when the member asking the question was a member of that cabinet, had a series of budgets that substantially increased the tax burden on Albertans.

The question I would like the member to explain to me is what is the difference between the taxes that were introduced by that government and the taxes that he is attempting to forestall now?

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance should also recognize that this minister at

that time cut a billion dollars of spending in the public and placed it back in the treasury of Alberta. That billion dollars is helping the taxpayer of Alberta today.

I want to tell the Minister of Finance and also the Prime Minister today that there is a message from Canadians, from the tax rallies that I have attended in the last week or so. I want to tell them something about taxes.

If the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance increase the taxes to Canadians, they are going to bring on themselves and the government of this country what they call the triple-R whammy. They are going to resist. They are going to react. They are going to revolt in terms of any kind of tax increases. If that is not good enough, they are going to reform this country.

Will the Prime Minister stand in his place today and tell Canadians that there will be no tax increases in 1995?