Debates of March 13th, 1995

Fisheries

[The Speaker]

I am going to let the hon. member conclude, but I beg him not to use any props even though it is only a fish pen.

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Speaker, knowing the House has a good imagination, I can say that a healthy fishery is conducted on animals, living resources of the sea that are between 24 and 28 inches. Many of the fish being caught are smaller than the palm of my hand. That is no prop; that is my hand. This has to stop.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge, AB]

I will take that as a wave.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, to demonstrate the seriousness and the firmness of Canada's position, will the minister confirm that his government will not free the seized vessel before the European Union resumes negotiations with Canada, which is the condition the Union would impose on us?

[Brian Tobin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, the government is proceeding today to do all things required in a very normal and appropriate way in Canadian law. That is the action we are taking today and that is the action we shall continue without fail over the hours and days ahead.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, my next question is directed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Could the minister tell us whether or not Canada has taken diplomatic steps to reach a peaceful resolution of the conflict with the European Union that will respect the pressing goal of protecting and conserving current stocks of turbot threatened by overfishing on the part of European ships?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely clear that the Government of Canada wishes to continue on the path of diplomacy and to explore all diplomatic avenues at our disposal, for example

discussions with representatives of the European Union and, in particular, with Spain.

It is clear that our ambassador to Spain, our ambassador to the European Union and officials of my department here in Ottawa have contacted the ambassadors of the countries in the European Union to explain our position, to state quite clearly that it is our goal to conserve fish stocks and to reach an amicable agreement as soon as possible.

Old Age Pensions

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when he tabled his budget, the Minister of Finance announced that he would release later this year an old age pension reform proposal. In fact, if we follow the minister's logic, his goal of a sustainable old age pension system can only lead to a reduction in the benefits paid under the current system.

Does the Minister of Finance admit that his old age pension reform proposal, under the pretext of putting in place a sustainable system, is aimed at depriving thousands of seniors of benefits?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Not at all, Mr. Speaker.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Finance admit that his old age pension reform proposal is aimed at making seniors poorer and replacing the current pension system with a social assistance program for seniors? Will he tell us the truth?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Not at all, Mr. Speaker. The reason why the Minister of Human Resources Development and I intend to release these documents is precisely to avoid the catastrophe the hon. member has just described.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to pursue the issue of pensions because last year the Liberal government promised that a white paper on aging would be presented to the House before last month's budget. However, like so many of the government's policy initiatives, Canadians are still waiting for the white paper. The promise has been broken.

My question is for the Prime Minister. When can Canadians expect to see this long awaited paper on aging? Will it be tabled before the government embarks on any changes to the CPP or to OAS?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there will be a paper on aging. The Minister of Human Resources Development is working on it. It is very much in line with the reform of social programs.

We said that we have to enter into negotiations with the provinces. There will be discussions with members of the House. There will be committees and eventually resolution of the problem by the House.

I can assure everybody that our goal is to make sure we maintain a very good social security system for retired people in Canada.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is really no secret that the current Canada pension plan is in big trouble. The Minister of Finance stated that unless premiums are radically increased public pensions will not survive to the 21st century.

It is also no secret that when the government wants to act it can. Look how the Liberals acted to protect their own lavish pensions, for example.

My supplementary question is for the Prime Minister. What changes does the government have planned for CPP? Is it higher premiums, increasing the retirement age, or both? Canadians deserve an answer.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as usual Canadian people will have their answers after we have had public discussions with them and with members of the House.

I hope members of the Reform Party will have good ideas about it, but I do not think they will get them from Mr. Gingrich in Washington.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the delays are disconcerting. We were promised studies but nothing is happening. Canadians do not think the government will be able to provide adequately for their future. They want the government to give them the tools to care for themselves.

Before the ink was even dry on the last budget the government is again floating the idea of taxing RRSPs. Canadians are worried and confused about how they should provide for their retirement security.

Simply, will the government consider replacing CPP with an RRSP style program that gives Canadians more control over their economic future?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I see the problem of the Reform Party. It is trying to build up some straw bonhomme, as we say in English, toshoot at.

Our social programs will be reviewed thoroughly with the participation of all members of the House of Commons. Unfor-

tunately members of the Reform Party will not do a lot to make sure the poorest in society are protected. They will make sure the rich do very well.

Social Program Reform

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Now that the federal government has announced its decisions concerning social program reform, the Quebec government is requesting that a federal-provincial conference of ministers responsible for manpower be held as soon as possible to discuss the consequences of the federal measures announced, in particular the reduction in transfer payments.

Does the Minister of Human Resources Development intend to call as soon as possible this spring a conference on the impact of his social program reform, as requested by Quebec?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I am very pleased to see that the Quebec government has finally decided to participate in federal-provincial discussions on social security. I think that it is a step towards resolving several problems with the social safety net. I hope that the hon. members of the Bloc Quebecois will now follow the lead of their Quebec colleagues and show the same spirit of co-operation as the Quebec government.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the minister that the last federal-provincial conference on this issue was scheduled for April 18 and that the previous government was in power at the time.

Here is my supplementary. Will the minister finally agree to comply with the Quebec National Assembly's unanimous resolution, made on April 14, 1994, to abide by the unanimous consensus among all stakeholders that Quebec has to have exclusive jurisdiction over manpower training?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times in the House, we have already put forward an offer to all provinces for a new rationalization of our manpower training programs. Several provinces have indicated an interest in responding. We have already signed an agreement with the province of Saskatchewan. We are well into negotiations with several other provinces.

With the new found interest of the Government of Quebec in working with us on social security reform, I would hope we could have serious discussions. I would be more than happy to sit down today with Madam Harel and the Government of Quebec to discuss exactly that.

Taxation

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, at the world summit on social development in Copenhagen last Thursday the minister of human resources spoke about his government slapping a tax on automatic teller machine use and an electronic information tax. Is the minister prepared to pop this trial balloon right now?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, at this very important conference of 190 countries both government officials and NGOs were discussing how we could come to grips with the questions of unemployment and poverty. One of the most serious issues was how to deal with the rapid rise of currency speculation where a trillion dollars passes boundaries every single day; 80 per cent of it is pure speculation.

One of the areas discussed was how we could provide deterrence to that kind of large scale disruption of financial markets, disruption of investment and certainly disruption of people's lives. It is very strange when it appears the Reform Party is trying to defend currency speculators.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that comment is really something else. The average person who goes to an automatic teller machine in Canada is not exactly a currency speculator.

The minister of human resources has stated on a number of occasions that the answer to our unemployment problem lies in information technologies. What does he think he is doing with comments like this? He is discouraging people who are looking at new information technology when he is talking about putting a toll gate on the information highway.