Mr. Speaker, this has certainly become a very partisan and polarized debate on gun control.
I hope the Minister of Justice will listen to the argument being put forth by the Reform Party in favour of splitting the bill into two parts. Presumably the focus is on the reduction of crime and the enhancement of the safety of Canadians.
With the way the Minister of Justice is proposing the bill we would think every gun owner in the country is a criminal. That is far from the truth and an insult to Canadians who own guns.
There are approximately 2.7 million Criminal Code infractions in the country per annum. The number of gun related incidents under the Criminal Code would be about one-half of one per cent or even less. Yet the Minister of Justice proposes to spend a couple of hundred million dollars or more to try to reduce the one-half of one per cent.
This will not be money spent finding criminals. This will not be money spent prosecuting criminals. This will not be money spent keeping criminals in prison. It is a couple of hundred million dollars to address the fact that one-half of one per cent of crime is committed with firearms.
The minister quoted statistics. He said that the majority of Canadians were in favour of gun control. Let us remember that a large segment of Canadians do not own guns. I happen to be one.
When we ask Canadians if they are in favour of registration and they do not own guns, chances are good that they would say it does not bother them a bit so why would they be opposed?
Last fall the Minister of Finance held his prebudget hearings across the country and listened to Canadians talk about the budget. They all said the deficit had to be addressed. They said: "We have to increase taxes but don't increase mine". Or, they said: "We have to cut expenditures but don't cut me". It is the same rationale when we ask people if they are in favour of gun control. If they do not own a gun they will be in favour of gun control because it means absolutely nothing to them.
Section 85, as it currently exists, is one of the few sections of the Criminal Code that calls for a mandatory sentence. Quite often it has been plea bargained away. We in the Reform Party have always said that if the present law is not working perhaps we could change it. They should demonstrate to us that the minister's proposals will be an improvement.
Last fall I wrote to the Minister of Justice and I asked him how often section 85 was plea bargained away. Section 85 calls for a minimum mandatory jail sentence, no fines, for using a firearm in the commission of an offence. How often do we plea bargain that away? The minister said that he did not know. He said that he did not have the statistics to know how often we plea bargained it away.
Therefore we do not know if what is on the books today would work if used properly. The Minister of Justice admitted that he did not know. Why is he putting forth gun registration and why does he think it would work?
We also asked the Minister of Justice: "Since you tell us that this will reduce crime, by what measurement would we know that your proposals are a success?" He could not answer. He did not have any measurement by which he could tell us how many lives would be saved or how many crimes would not be committed because of registration. The minister has no facts to back up his arguments.
Four points should be looked at when one proposes legislation. Is it relevant? Is it effective? Is it an efficient way of addressing the situation? Is there a better way? Let us take a look at them.
Is it relevant? Yes, we have crime in the country. Every country has crime. Yes, we should be tough on crime.
The Minister of Justice is proposing that we be tough on people who destroy their guns and do not send in a piece of paper to the authorities. They will get five years in jail for not sending in a piece of paper.
What about somebody who does not have a proper licence? They will get 10 years in jail. That is what the minister is proposing. Yet Denis Lortie walked out as a free man after 10 years in jail. He murdered three people in the Quebec legislature and injured thirteen more. After 10 years he was a free man, and for not having a piece of paper the Minister of Justice is proposing the same punishment.
Is it relevant? Laws that will stop criminals from committing acts and punishing them severely for their wrongdoings will be supported by the Reform Party. That is relevant. Does the minister feel that registering all guns at a cost of $200 million or more will reduce crime? I am quite sure he know it will not. Therefore it is not relevant and the section he is proposing to force upon thousands of Canadians is totally absurd.
Will the bill be effective in meeting its objectives? There is no evidence whatsoever the universal registration the minister is proposing will reduce crime. He even said so himself. He could not answer the question when we asked it. Since then he has not put forward anything to suggest he has any concrete measures by which it would be a success.
The minister should look at the Reform proposal to split the bill into its two segments. We find registration irrelevant. However addressing the criminal use of guns and firearms is relevant and we would support it.
I have already talked about the crime of failing to produce a certificate, five years in prison and so on. Let us compare using a gun to a drunk person driving a car. The minister of justice spoke eloquently about drunkenness today in the bill he introduced in that regard. More people are killed on the road by drunk drivers committing illegal acts than by Canadians using firearms illegally. We do not have anything nearly as draconian as he is proposing.
If a person fails to renew a car registration form I understand in the province of Ontario the fine is $5.50 a month. If a person, however, fails to register a gun it is 10 years in jail. That seems a rather strange dichotomy: 10 years in jail for not registering a gun and $5 a month for not registering a car. Under illegal circumstances they are both every bit as lethal. That is the point.
What about people who drive without a licence? In the province of Ontario the fine is $265 and in the case of a gun it is 10 years in jail.
Will the legislation be efficient in addressing the problem? We have said as Reformers that if it is split into the criminal aspect it will be efficient. If it is split into the other segment, registration for all Canadians is totally and absolutely inefficient. My colleague from Edmonton Southwest said: "My goodness, we have to borrow $200 million more and pass the bill on to our grandchildren, just so the Liberals can say they are trying to do something about crime when in fact they are doing nothing".
In closing, we are saying to the Minister of Justice that 99 per cent of gun owners handle their firearms safely. They store them securely. They use them responsibly. Therefore they should be left alone. The other 1 per cent who are criminals and commit criminal acts are the ones he should be focusing on. That is what Canadians want and deserve. They do not want a Minister of Justice simply playing politics and not doing his homework to produce the statistics to support his argument.
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.