Debates of April 6th, 1995

Status Of Women

[Sheila Finestone, Liberal, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism) (Status of Women)]

Mr. Speaker, I greatly appreciate the Bloc's concern for the status of Canadian women. I think this suggests it recognizes that equity and unity are going strong in Canada.

In this regard, she must recognize that our February budget did not contain any cuts in grants or contributions to women's groups. And I told women just that: "No cuts in grants or contributions". I told women and I repeat that the opinion of women from all regions of Canada will be taken into consideration when budget adjustments are made. I hope that the Bloc Quebecois is interested in the well-being of all women in Canada.

Young Offenders Act

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Vaudreuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the west island of Montreal, indeed the whole region, was shocked to learn of the brutal murder of Reverend Frank Toope and his wife, Jocelyn. Three youths have been charged with the first degree murder of the retired couple. The victims were battered to death with a baseball bat.

Can the Minister of Justice assure this House that with the amendments to the Young Offenders Act currently before the Senate, young violent offenders will no longer be able to hide behind the law? Will justice be served for the victims, their families, the offenders and most of all for society?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the tragic deaths of Reverend and Mrs. Toope have shocked and saddened the community of Beaconsfield. All Canadians have been touched by the senselessness of this brutal crime. As the hon. member has said, people have been charged and the case is now before the courts. I will be careful not to comment on the facts of that case. Let me speak more broadly to the issues the member has raised.

The government cannot say that merely changing words in a statute, in a book, is going to prevent tragedies like this from happening. We know that is not so. A number of things are required to prevent crime and to get at its causes.

To the extent to which changes in the criminal law and the Young Offenders Act can deter and properly punish such misconduct, this government has acted. Bill C-37, which is through the House, is now before the Senate and I hope it will receive its prompt attention. As the House knows, that bill increases penalties for murder. It provides for the transfer to adult court of certain youths charged with serious violent crimes. It provides for the sharing of information.

I have also asked for the justice committee to tour the country, to listen to Canadians, to examine our juvenile justice system and determine whether other changes are needed. This government will be responsive to those recommendations. We are committed to a system that is fair and tough. We will act on that conviction.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is in regard to the aforementioned horror which took place in Montreal. Two citizens were brutally, coldly and with extreme calculation bludgeoned to death by three young offenders. These murders were coldly planned homicides without remorse.

Will the justice minister assure the people of Canada by insisting that the 14 and 15-year old psychopath young offenders be tried in adult court?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I fully understand how Canadians, including members of the House, react to the horror and tragedy of events such as these.

I do urge the hon. member to bear in mind that the judicial process must run its course. There are people charged who are presumed innocent. There will be a trial. The crown will proffer evidence and a court will decide who is responsible. We must not prejudice that process.

Let me say in response to the point raised by the hon. member that any decision on whether or not to seek a transfer to adult

court is for the prosecuting lawyer to make. That person takes direction from the Attorney General of the province of Quebec.

[Myron Thompson, Reform, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have received nearly 50,000 letters and I know the minister has received the same amount regarding the Young Offenders Act.

We have continually heard from this minister that crime prevention, assistance for troubled youth at risk will stop these horrible crimes. It is too late for these two elderly people.

We have been told by provincial agencies that this government talks about assistance for youth at risk but does nothing. I ask the minister: When will he become a minister of action instead of an acting minister?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the record will show that I have never claimed we are going to be able to stop all crime. That is not going to happen.

What I have said is that while there is a role for toughening up the laws and providing better responses and enforcement, that is not all that is required. A great deal of other things are required as well and we have to focus on all of them.

I respond to the hon. member by saying that we have taken action by passing Bill C-37. We have taken action by asking the committee to recommend further changes. We have created the National Crime Prevention Council. My colleagues in cabinet are working in a variety of ways to address the underlying social causes of crime in this country.

Burundi

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The UN special envoy to Burundi accused the international community of pushing that country toward a genocide. Yesterday, in Bujumbura, that official denounced the international community's inconsistency and irresponsibility regarding the crisis in Burundi, where two million people may have to leave their homes, thus creating the world's largest concentration of refugees, according to the British Red Cross.

Will the minister once again remain insensitive to the increasing number of calls for help in Burundi?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, let me simply remind the hon. member what Canada has done in recent weeks and months to avoid a crisis which could reach proportions similar to the one which occurred in Rwanda.

First, the Secretary of State responsible for Latin America and Africa personally travelled to Bujumbura to participate in a meeting to find solutions to the refugee problem.

Second, Canada tabled a resolution which was supported by all the ministers attending a conference of the Francophonie, which was held in France, and where it was decided to send a ministerial delegation to Burundi to try to work out a solution with local authorities.

Third, the Canadian government is subsidizing NGO's, particularly the International Red Cross, in their efforts to help the civilian populations affected by the conflict.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister already told us about his information, his concerns, his representations and his hopes. However, my question is: How can Canada remain unconcerned by the plea for help made yesterday by the UN special envoy in Burundi? What is Canada waiting for to act, to show some leadership and to help a fellow member of the Francophonie? After all, Canada has displayed such leadership in the past.

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for recognizing that the government is already involved. It is not fair to say that we are unconcerned. On the contrary, the initiatives which I just mentioned reflect our will to find a solution.

The hon. member would like Canada to be a leader regarding that issue. We are prepared to take on the role which the parties involved would like us to assume. Canada cannot impose itself. However, we have clearly shown that we are willing and prepared to help the parties involved if it is their wish.

Justice

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, seven weeks ago the 14-year old daughter of two constituents of mine moved in with a 26-year old convicted sex offender. Neither the parents nor the police can do anything about this because the law states that the age of consent is 14 years.

Does the Minister of Justice see this as a case of child exploitation, or is the government content to see the situation continue?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of Justice has under review the whole question of the age of consent to sexual activity precisely because of our concern for the young people who might otherwise be victimized.

I do however emphasize that the criminal law is not entirely silent in this respect. For example, as provided in section 273.1

of the code, there is no consent if the participation of someone of that age is induced by breach of trust or authority, threat or fear.

I point out to the hon. member that there may well be provisions in the code which would deal with this situation.

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the minister's attention another instance where for two years 46-year-old Henry Halm has been in Canada to avoid facing a prison sentence in New York for sexually abusing four young males, aged 15 and 16.

A Canadian judge recently ruled that Canada's laws dealing with the age of consent for sodomy are unconstitutional.

Does the Minister of Justice see this as a case of child exploitation? Is he prepared to change the law for the age of consent to see that this is stopped?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the issue in the case referred to by the hon. member is just the opposite. It was alleged in that case that the prohibition of homosexual activity by those who are under 18 years of age is unconstitutional because it is inconsistent with the rule otherwise for heterosexual activity. I believe that case is still before the courts and I will be careful not to comment further.

I am meeting this afternoon with a group called Citizens Against Child Exploitation led by a courageous and energetic woman, Monica Rainey from British Columbia. I am looking forward to that meeting. I have met with her in the past and I always learn from my encounters with her. This very subject is on the agenda. I will express my interest to Ms. Rainey and I will discuss it with her.

I can assure the hon. member that it is something that we will consider very carefully.

Regional Development

[Morris Bodnar, Liberal, Saskatoon—Dundurn, SK]

Mr. Speaker, last fall a group of western MPs consulted with western Canadians on regional development. Important matters were recommended to the minister in charge of western diversification, including export promotion and helping high growth sectors.

What is the Minister of Western Diversification doing to implement the recommendations to help strengthen the economy of western Canada?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member, and especially members of his committee, who made some very important recommendations.

I am pleased to report to the House that as a result of those representations and the guidelines set out in the budget that as of April 1 the Department of Western Economic Diversification has changed its fundamental approach to funding. We are now out of the direct lending or contribution business to individual enterprises. Instead we are now working with financial institutions to set up a network of investment capital pools across western Canada.

I can report that the Royal Bank, as it indicated last week before committee, is now prepared to join with us in setting up a very large investment capital system for the agriculture biotechnology industry. We have several other investment pools ready to be initiated that will provide a whole new system of investment capital for western Canada which will be the spur for real growth and real jobs.

Presence In The Gallery

[The Speaker]

I would like to draw members' attention to the presence in the gallery of Mrs. Kleveland, Minister of Cultural Affairs (Culture, Sport and Media) from Norway.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Points Of Order

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Standing Order No. 18 states in part:

No Member may reflect upon any vote of the House-

Nowhere in my member's statement did I specifically refer to a vote in the House nor was I about to.

By cutting me off halfway through my statement, I ask, with respect, for you to please tell me how my privileges as a member of this House have not been breached.

[The Speaker]

Order. There are times in the House, when we are making statements and asking and answering questions, in the heat of the debate, sometimes words are used that I interpret as indications of where a member is going.

In the particular case today, as members know, the Speaker does not explain his decision. I would be happy to speak to the hon. member for Crowfoot.

With all respect the hon. member, I would say this. It seemed to me at the time that the member was going in this direction and I thought I heard inference to the vote.

I am perfectly willing to review the blues. If, indeed, I made a mistake, as I will from time to time, because a lot of things happen at once and I am trying to pay very strict attention to hon. members when they speak. I will have a look at the blues and if, indeed, I was in error then I will come back to the House.

Will the hon. member at least give me the time to review the blues and we will take it from there. I will be happy to speak to the hon. member in my chambers if he wishes to pursue this.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order. I would ask that when you review the blues and this question, that you give us a little more guidance on the interpretation of this rule. It seems to me there have been numerous references during question period to votes that have taken place in the House.

For instance, the minister of immigration regularly refers to the vote on Bill C-44. Perhaps you could clarify your interpretation of that rule.

[The Speaker]

If it is necessary to come back to the House with a ruling on this particular subject, your Speaker will take into account all of the requests that are made to him here in the House today.

I am going to proceed first to the regular Thursday question. Then I want to give my ruling on a point of order raised by the hon. member for Crowfoot.

Business Of The House

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as incredible as it may sound, I rise to ask the traditional question for a Thursday, even though today is the last time we meet for two weeks. I still wish to ask the hon. Leader of the Government in the House to tell us what is on the agenda for that period of time.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member wants to know what we are going to do during the next two weeks. I do not think that comes under the purview of the House.

However, I will make a statement about what will happen when the House returns on April 24. As I have said, I will leave what is to be done by hon. members in the intervening period to them and their own good judgment, if not their good taste.

When the House returns on April 24, we will be entering the most intensive part of the parliamentary calendar. I believe, therefore, it would be useful if I outlined briefly, not only the business for the next few days we are back but also priorities for the period between our resumption of sittings and the break in the month of May.

The business of supply requires many opposition days in this period, one or two a week. I should like to designate Thursday, April 27 as one of those opposition days.

Our first priorities when we come back from the Easter break will be to complete the third reading of Bill C-69 regarding electoral boundaries, and second reading of Bill C-76 implementing the budget, if these bills have not been completed, of course, before we adjourn today.

We will then return to report stage of Bill C-43, respecting lobbyists and to a motion to set up a special joint committee to develop a code of conduct for members of both Houses of Parliament.

Our next priority will be second readings of other important and pressing bills, namely Bill C-75 regarding farm loans; Bill C-70 regarding income tax; the bill respecting the Mint which was introduced this morning, and a very limited number of measures to be introduced later this month on which there are some time constraints.

We will also give priority to the bills that have already been considered by parliamentary committees and which have been reported back to the House and which, therefore, are now in their final stages of debate in the Chamber. These are Bill C-54 regarding old age security; Bill C-67 respecting veterans pensions and Bill C-65 concerning government organization.

There is also Bill C-41 regarding sentencing; Bill C-45 respecting conditional release; Bill C-58 regarding the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and Bill C-52 respecting the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

We will then consider other items reported from committee and any other items on which there is a consensus to move along.

By way of conclusion, I want to say I am providing this information now so the House leaders of the other parties are able to assess their positions in order to enable them to join with me, when the House resumes, in planning a reasonable schedule for the House in late April and early May which will in turn make it possible for us to do similar planning for what will be a very crowded agenda in June.

Having said all that, I wish all members of the House and their families a happy Easter and a happy Passover.