Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to speak at second reading on Bill C-87 concerning the prohibition of chemical weapons.
The Reform Party supports the chemical weapons convention which Canada signed in 1993. We will also support this legislation allowing us to be among the first groups of countries to implement the convention's terms of agreement.
As all members of the House are well aware, Canada has been a world leader when it comes to the promotion of peace. We have given steadfast support to the UN, provided peacekeepers in times of need and promoted international agreements and regimes to limit the dangers of war.
In the case of the chemical weapons convention we are dealing with a particularly important issue. Not only is the use of chemical weapons highly illegitimate against combatants who at least have some protection against them, but the threat of their use against civilian populations is an intolerable breach of civilized conduct by any nation.
Most of us will remember with horror the terrible scenes of the Kurdish villages gassed by the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein in the late 1980s. This is the kind of tragedy that must be avoided at all costs in the future. By ratifying Bill C-87 Canada will be doing its part toward this end.
In the news today we see the arrest of the person in Japan allegedly responsible for the gas attack in the subway station in Japan. I hope Bill C-87 would go a long way to ensure that type of terrorist activity is never allowed on any part of the planet.
Bill C-87 prohibits the production or use of chemical weapons and provides for the regulation of certain chemicals that can readily be turned into chemical weapons. As we speak, similar pieces of legislation are being prepared throughout the world. Hopefully by this fall the convention will come into force. As things now stand, a large majority of countries have signed on, which is quite promising. The fewer countries outside of this convention, the more pressure there will be to adhere strictly to its goals and provisions.
Unfortunately several middle eastern countries are refusing to join the convention. They argue that because Israel is not willing to join the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, they cannot sign on. While I hope they will reconsider, I also hope the Government of Israel will bring its nuclear program out of the closet and join the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The chemical weapons convention and the NNPT are agreements in the best interest of the people and governments of the world. Therefore they should not be used for tactical advantage by any government.
Moving on to the substance of the bill, while the Reform Party supports the bill, we are looking at it closely to see if there are constructive amendments that should be made to it during debate and in committee. High on the list for Reform are the costs to the taxpayer and to Canadian industry. While we acknowledge the bill has some legitimate costs, according to our preliminary investigation the government does not yet know the price tag on Bill C-87.
As Bill C-87 works its way through the legislative process, we should try to determine how best to improve it so implementation will be as cost effective as possible. For example, we must avoid the creation of a huge new bureaucracy to monitor and regulate the Canadian chemical industry.
Officials at foreign affairs have advised us that a full time staff of five as a national authority plus one additional staffer at foreign affairs might be needed. We should make sure it does not go beyond this. At any rate, during committee the question should be carefully addressed.
Another key question for the committee will be the inspection powers used to monitor the industry. As we have seen in another government bill, Bill C-68 on gun control, the government can be very heavy handed and intrusive if it is left to its own devices. Reform wants to make sure this case is not repeated on Bill C-87.
More important, Reform has some serious concerns about the privacy of businesses which will fall under the auspices of Bill
C-87. Industries subject to inspection must fully comply with inspectors or be subject to summary conviction or conviction on indictment. Under the more serious category persons will be subject up to five years in prison and a $500,000 fine.
Considering these serious penalties, business people will be forced to comply even if they feel their legitimate rights to privacy are being violated. Under sections 14(1)(b) and (c) the inspectors can examine anything in the place being inspected and make copies of any information contained in the records, files, papers or electronic information systems kept or used in relation to the place being inspected and to remove the copies from that place.
Although I know the intent of the legislation aims to fulfil the obligations of the convention, I am slightly worried these investigations could be used as a fishing expedition by the government to sift companies through a fine tooth comb.
Parliament should be sure such inspections are required to directly investigate whether companies are breaching the chemical weapons convention. Fishing expeditions should be specifically prohibited.
Under section 15(3) the bill says search warrants would not be required even if an inspector were refused entry to a premises if there are exigent circumstances. Although the justice department likes the wording and argues it is necessary so inspectors can have a freer hand, I am not convinced. As we all know, there are no industries in Canada that currently make chemical weapons or use them. What circumstances would be so pressing that a warrant could not be obtained? If this provision is only to be used in extreme emergencies where inspectors must take immediate action it should state so explicitly. If on the other hand it is intended to be used for the convenience of inspectors it should be removed from the bill.
Section 20 reminds me of the government's gun control bill. It states every person who contravenes any provisions of this act is guilty of an offence and is liable to either an indictable or summary conviction. Once again I realize the government is casting a wide net in order to avoid loopholes. However, this means to me that a business which incorrectly reports its activities or fills out a form incorrectly would be guilty of an offence under the Criminal Code of Canada. If a clerk makes the mistake would that employee be convicted? Would the owner? What about the board of directors? Would it be the clerk's supervisor? Surely this must be cleared up.
While I do not have anything against seriously punishing a company secretly making or selling chemical weapons, I think the bill may be going too far. Just like Bill C-68, we have to target the criminals and those who are willfully breaking the chemical weapons convention, not ordinary Canadians or business people who get caught up in the government's web.
Another section which caught my attention is 23(1), which talks about how the government can at the discretion of the minister in charge dispose of items seized under this act.
As I looked through the act, however, I did not see exactly where the government was given authority to seize property or what the limits were on that seizure. I would certainly want this point clarified in debate and during committee.
As I read through the details of the bill, I eventually came to the three schedules of chemicals that are being regulated. All prohibited chemical weapons are listed in schedule 1. According to my understanding, these chemicals are not used by any industry in Canada. However, there are a few research organizations that do require them. If Bill C-87 passes, these researchers will be required to obtain a licence from the government to continue with their activities. They will also be subject to two inspections per year to ensure that they are following the rules. A fee will be charged for this licence.
I do not have a problem with any of this, subject to the following two conditions. First, my concerns about privacy and the targeting of this legislation should be addressed to ensure that we are not whittling away at legitimate freedoms and liberties of Canadians. Second, the fee charged for this licence should be reasonable. Perhaps a maximum fee could be decided on during the committee stage or it should be made explicit that the fees would be on a cost recovery basis only.
Moving on to the chemicals in schedule 2, these are known as precursors and are one step removed from being chemical weapons. They are used for some commercial processes but not too extensively.
Companies producing or using schedule 2 chemicals in amounts beyond a certain threshold will be required to report this to the government. Beyond a second threshold, those companies will also be subject to an inspection of up to two per year maximum. While there is no licensing for schedule 2 chemicals, certain new chemicals will be added to the Export Permits Act.
In addition, three years after Bill C-87 passes, the export of schedule 2 chemicals will be banned to countries that are not signatories to the convention. Until then, importers in non-signatory countries will be required to produce end use certificates for schedule 2 chemicals.
As for the schedule 3 chemicals, these are more commonly used industrial chemicals. Companies producing schedule 3 chemicals in amounts beyond a certain threshold will be required to report this to the government. Beyond a second threshold those producers may be subject to infrequent random
inspections to ensure compliance with the convention. In addition, facilities that work with discrete organic chemicals must report this to the government.
Export of schedule 3 chemicals to non-signatory countries will require end use certificates, and after five years further measures may be imposed.
Looking at Bill C-87 as a whole, I believe Canadians will support this bill strongly. Canadians have always been strong supporters of multilateral efforts to promote peace and restrict arms proliferation. This is especially true with respect to the prohibition of the use of chemical weapons. By asserting leadership in this area, Canada is standing up for the extension of a rules based multilateral system to defend our interests and promote common norms and values with like minded countries.
In conclusion, Reform will support this bill, and throughout the legislative process we will seek to improve it. These improvements will make its implementation as pain free as possible for industry while still upholding Canada's commitments under the chemical weapons convention.