Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-91, the motion to refer the bill to committee prior to second reading.
I know other members before me including my colleagues the member for Edmonton Southwest, the member for Okanagan Centre and the member for Kootenay East have spoken to the contents of the bill and what they hope to accomplish in committee, the weaknesses and strengths of the bill regarding the Federal Business Development Bank.
I will take a slightly different attack. This motion refers the bill to committee prior to second reading. As members know, this is a new process which has just been implemented in this 35th Parliament. We are doing some experimentation with regard to how we pass legislation.
The Reform Party agreed with the procedure of sending bills to committee prior to second reading because the Liberals had promised that under this new process there would be ample time for substantive amendments to be debated and discussed in committee before the bill was approved in principle as it is during second reading debate.
I will read what the standing orders say with regard to referring bills to committee prior to second reading. Bill C-91 falls into this category. Standing Order 73(1):
Immediately after the reading of the order of the day for the second reading of any public bill, a minister of the crown may, after notifying representatives of the opposition parties, propose a motion that the said bill be forthwith referred to a standing, special or legislative committee. The Speaker shall immediately propose the question to the House and proceedings thereon shall be subject to the following conditions:
In the case of Bill C-91 these requirements were followed. The minister did make a request that the bill go to committee prior to second reading and there had been consultation with the other parties.
Standing Order 73(1)(b) says: "the motion shall not be subject to any amendment".
That means as we debate this motion today we cannot implement any amendments. I can understand that because we are not dealing with the substance of the bill. We are dealing the
procedural matter, whether the bill should go to committee prior to second reading. The standing orders preclude any amendments to this motion.
Standing Order 73(1)(c) states no member may speak more than once nor longer than ten minutes. Standing Order 73(1)(d) states that after not more than 180 minutes of debate, three hours, the Speaker shall interrupt the debate and the question shall be put and decided without further debate.
We are not having a second reading debate right now. We are debating a motion to refer Bill C-91 to the Standing Committee on Industry. The committee will be challenged with the task of reviewing the bill, listening to witnesses, proposing amendments and having a vigorous debate on the value of Bill C-91; whether it is a strong and good piece of legislation, whether it needs to be substantially changed or whether it should be defeated. I am sure when the bill goes to committee these issues will be looked at.
I am really concerned about whether we can take the government at face value when it says it will permit open and complete debate in committee prior to second reading. When we agree to this process we forego debate at second reading.
We are not really having a full blown debate right now because we are limited to 180 minutes. We cannot make amendments because we are dealing with a motion, not with the bill. It is critical that if we also lose our second reading debate we have a committee that functions well, is open to amendments, takes time to consider the bill and will not rush the bill through committee stage without proper analysis, without enough witnesses being called and without time taken at the clause by clause review of the bill.
I am concerned, not because of Bill C-91 and the industry committee, but about what happened in the human rights and disabled persons committee which also received a bill through this process. The member for Kingston and the Islands said that bill was before the committee for five months. Let me tell the House what the committee did for five months.
I think members of the committee allowed only four witnesses Reform suggested to appear before the committee. All others were government witnesses. That does not sound like a very open process. Maybe the Bloc had a few, I am not sure. Certainly the appearance of witnesses before the committee was restricted. That does not sound like the spirit of Standing Order 73. It certainly does not fall under the spirit of the red book. We are having some real problems with the credibility of the red book in light of all the broken promises we see amassing at a rapid pace. Almost on a daily basis we see new broken promises.
The bill came before the committee and it refused to hear our witnesses. We were let to sit a simmer for a long time. Suddenly it was time for clause by clause debate. Our members brought forward amendments, some prior to the clause by clause debate and some on the day of the clause by clause debate. These amendments were refused contrary to Standing Order 62 because the chairman said they were only submitted in one official language. I hope that does not happen with Bill C-91.
I understand the industry committee functions a little better than the human rights committee. It almost sounds like an oxymoron to use the term human rights when we are talking about the actions which transpired in the committee the other day.
The chairman ruled contrary to Standing Order 62 and refused to even consider debating amendments put forward by my Reform colleagues. Initially the committee refused to accept amendments from the floor, saying they had to be submitted ahead of time. It is contrary to the rules and spirit of the motion to submit these bills to committee prior to second reading.
There were some other problems. Suddenly a motion was passed limiting debate per clause to five minutes. I hope this does not happen with Bill C-91 because this makes a sham of the committee process. That five minutes included reading the clause; some clauses were a whole page, some clauses were difficult to complete in the time limit. After reading a clause all three parties had far less than five minutes to comment on each clause. That is not meaningful debate. It is not in the spirit of Standing Order 73. It is not why Reform supported this change to the committee process.
I trust this will not happen with Bill C-91. If this reoccurs it will indicate the government did not bring the changes to the standing orders forward in good faith. It was using this as a mechanism whereby the debate on bills could be shortened, particularly on contentious bills such as C-64, and therefore prevent the House from dealing with the bill at a second reading debate. This is a very serious matter and why I bring it to the attention of the House.
Furthermore, in the committee the chairman refused to hear points of order. I know, Mr. Speaker, you have never in the Chamber refused to hear points of order; neither have the Deputy Speaker nor any of the acting speakers. The standing orders indicate points of order must be heard. The chairman in the human rights committee refused to hear points of order, again a breach of the standing orders and the common procedures we follow in the House.
Therefore I hope Bill C-91 when it goes to committee prior to second reading will not face this type of abusive procedure on the part of the chair of the committee. I am sure it will not because I understand that committee works quite a bit more co-operatively.
In this committee the chair, if challenged on a point of order, said: "Do I have the agreement of the committee to proceed? Is my ruling sustained?" The Liberal members would jump up and say "sustained", and there was no debate on the issue.
The debate on the Federal Business Development Bank is important. It could be equally as important as the debate on employment equity, although the employment equity bill is certainly a more emotional issue. However, all bills are important. If they are brought to the House we expect them to be dealt with in a serious manner. We expect the rules of the House and the rules as they apply to committees to be followed.
I implore the government to review whether it is really open to honest debate in committee prior to second reading. When we use Standing Order 73 and refer bills to committee prior to a second reading debate, I challenge the government never again to implement draconian measures which would restrict debate on a particular clause to five minutes or less. That cannot happen. That takes away all credibility from the legislative process. It is demeaning to members of Parliament and, most important, it is absolutely wrong.
We will in good faith agree to send the bill to committee prior to second reading. I expect the discussion will be of a far higher quality than was the case in the human rights committee. Not only would I expect it, I think the House should demand it. Members of Parliament deserve to be heard and deserve to have their positions adequately expressed so there can be a vote taken after full and free debate. I recommend that for Bill C-91.