She is the leader of the Liberal Party in Ontario. On May 18 there was a major television debate which started off with a question on employment equity, what would all three of the major parties do with employment equity.
The provincial Liberal leader repeatedly attacked the NDP premier of Ontario about the language of employment equity. I quote from the Liberal leader of Ontario: "For me employment equity means ensuring that there is real equal opportunity in the hiring process, in the promotion process. That to me means that we do not support a quota approach by any other name, including numerical targets. To me a quota approach in employment equity is a violation of the principle of equal opportunity".
She went on to say numerical targets by any other name are an approach to quota because it focuses on the end goal. It does not deal with where the efforts should be, which is to ensure at the start of the process that real barriers should be removed.
What does Bill C-64 propose? The government is now trying to ram the bill through committee. One of the first sections of the bill relates to numerical targets. It says not to worry, it is not a quota, it is a numerical target. Numerical target is a harmless little thing meaning, according to Lyn McLeod, a quota. That is exactly what it is. It is a quota and hon. members know it. That is why this kind of legislation is repugnant to people looking for equal treatment for all Canadians and not special treatment for some which causes discrimination against others.
She was talking about equality of opportunity. If I were to take her position on this issue, she talks an awful lot like a Reformer. I almost hate to admit that, but that is the Reform Party position. The Reform Party position is we should ensure equality of opportunity but we cannot guarantee equality of results.
I do not understand why the federal Liberals and the provincial Liberals do not get their act together on this. They should look through the two red books. They both have a red book. One is more discredited than the other because the other one has not been around for quite as long. The provincial red book says they
will abolish the numerical targets. That is why they are to do away with it; it does not foster equality.
The leader of the provincial Conservatives says he will do away with the whole program. The federal Liberals seem to be eye to eye with the NDP. They are the only ones in the provincial election who are saying numerical targets are admirable. They along with the NDP seem to think it is a good idea. Even the provincial Liberals say it is not a good idea.
The Liberals probably have honourable intentions. They believe they are trying to foster an attitude of equal opportunity. Unfortunately it is based on a series of wrong assumptions which I will go through at this time.
To begin with, the idea we can somehow have numerical parity, that numbers will somehow make things non-discriminatory or more just is false.
There are all kinds of reasons why people are involved in different occupations: cultural, geographic, economic, historical. People have put other priorities in front of certain types of jobs and people sometimes do not even want to enter the workforce or do not want to work full time. There is never going to be a precise numerical target equalling the representation of the workforce in any one occupation. It is not possible. It will never be possible, no matter how you try to legislate it.
The entire legislation is based on a false assumption. The assumption is that Canadian employers are somehow systemically discriminatory; they are bad. The assumption is that they systemically discriminate against people, they are guilty, and we must force them to jump through hoops. And even if they are not guilty, their parents or grandparents probably were, so we will force them to jump through the hoops and go through a book of instructions. If they do not do as they are told we will jump down on them with the compliance police in order to make sure they do it.
It is wrong to assume that employers are discriminatory. I realize we do not live in a perfect world, but where we have examples of discrimination I say the courts and the human rights tribunals should come down on them like a ton of bricks. We have no patience on this side of the House for people who have discriminatory practices toward anyone. All people should be treated equally. When they are not, then the courts and the tribunals should do their job and make sure that those employers are punished properly. That has always been our position.
We also have big problems with the statistical base this whole thing is founded on. For example, 10 per cent of aboriginals refused to even be enumerated in the 1991 census. Also, we will be working with 1991 statistics until the year 2003. In other words, we are going to try to mesh current employment practices with 12-year-old statistics at a time when the demographics of Canada are changing so fast. It just is not going to work. Also, broad statistical generalizations do not take into account that certain groups, even if one believes in group rights, do not need any help.
Not that I like to do this, but Statistics Canada breaks down the Canadian population based on ethnicity and income. If we take the top earning group in Canada by ethnicity, which I think is a repugnant thing to even ask, the people of Japanese origin have the highest per capita income of any group in Canada, followed by Jews and Egyptians, if we take it by ethnicity.
Why would we want to put together an employment equity program that favours, in this case, the highest per capita income group in Canada? If we want to fulfil the letter of the law, if not the spirit, all we have to do is say we will hire this group or that group. Of course we should be hiring based on merit, not on ethnicity. However, if we are filling our quota we may be filling it up with people who do not need assistance, leaving others aside and hiring those who already have a good job or a good statistical average, if that is what matters.
It is interesting that the biggest problem with this statistical base is that in 1991, 765,000 people refused to say what their ethnic background was. Do you know what they put down? They put down "Canadian". Statistics Canada said it would get to the bottom of this by changing the next one so that people will have to answer what their ethnic background is, because we cannot have this dangerous trend where people are starting to call themselves Canadians; we must have hyphenated Canadians. Stats Canada is going to change its forms to ensure we get more hyphenated answers in the next go around. I am so pleased to hear that. That is disgusting.
We are also very concerned about the coercive nature of this. Bill C-64 and the current employment equity practice says that people must self-identify their ethnicity and whether they are one of the four designated groups: a visible minority, a woman, a disabled person, and what is the fourth one? Anyway, they must self-identify. What happens if they do not self-identify? The legislation and the courts say they cannot be forced to do it.
It is interesting that DND must now take part in the new process and it has started the identification process. It sends around a questionnaire, which is in two parts. It says on the top: "You must fill out out the top"-the top being your name, rank, serial number, and so on. Part two is optional-wink, wink: "You do not have to fill out the second part about your ethnic background. You will not be discriminated against if you do not. Do not worry about it. Just fill out the top. And if you do not fill in the bottom part, that is fine. Do not worry."
Let us get serious. Once our name is on the piece of paper we are not one of the players in the game. It is left up to the personnel manager or the promotion officer or whoever to say: "Is this guy playing by the rules or not? I am going to ask him to fill out the bottom part and then we will get the ethnicity on this piece of paper if it kills us." That is a very dangerous trend.
We think the whole system is wrong. It is very open to abuse by those who might lie on a form. For example, what would happen if we just encouraged everybody to put down that they consider themselves a member of a minority group? Everybody in Canada, let us all self-identify as minorities. In the end there could be a whole program designed around totally false statistical information, which of course is wrong.
I mentioned that there are only four designated groups. Although the government has no plans at this time to admit other groups, it is interesting how others can be read into it. We know that the courts can read other groups into the charter of rights. Last week, for example, although it did not actually say that homosexuals are included under section 15 of the charter, the federal court said they should be, doggone it, and they will be in future court references. Therefore, the idea that there are only four designated groups could well be expanded.
In the United States one New York firm had to do an entire survey of its workforce, with special attention being given to Canadian Americans, to find out if they had been discriminated against. I guess I should be grateful for that. Maybe we will get employment opportunities in the United States. It just shows how ridiculous it can be when it is taken to its logical extreme.
Employment equity is also very expensive. In the United States, where it has been in place for some 30 years, estimates from Forbes magazine say that it now takes up almost 4 per cent of GDP per year. Billions and tens of billions of dollars in the United States are used up, wasted, instead of helping individuals who need help. Money is wasted on government programs that have not proven effective in helping these groups at all. In Canada it is just starting, so it is not nearly as intrusive and not nearly as expensive; still, it is estimated that about 1 per cent of GDP is wasted on employment equity programs. That is $6 billion or $7 billion a year that is not even helping the people the government wants to help. It is being wasted in book work, reporting, jumping through the hoops, making it look good and so on and not really helping people based on need.
Reform sees this very much as a drag on our economy and a hidden tax on businesses that we cannot afford. It also hurts the designated groups. Many studies have shown how people feel patronized when we say we must have a program to make sure, for example, that we must hire women at this particular place of employment and we must have a special program. The inference is that somehow women are not qualified. Well that is just ridiculous. Fifty-five per cent of people who graduate from universities today are female. I am pleased to see that women have taken a leadership role in all avenues of our country and are continuing to expand as we move from a culture that was basically a home based job of rearing children and looking after the house and so on. We have evolved from that to a culture where women are accepted and should be accepted in all areas of the economy.
To say they somehow cannot compete on an even footing is very patronizing, not only to women but to the other designated groups as well. We have a role in government to ensure equality of opportunity. We should challenge everyone to compete equally. It is the role of government to ensure that and not to dictate the results on the employment side.
There are many other things my colleagues will be bringing up dealing with what is wrong with this whole idea. I look forward to the debate as it unfolds.