Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in the dying moments of the debate on Bill C-85.
I would consider this MP pension plan a political barometer. In the bill we have before us this government has an opportunity to establish its credibility, its sincerity. The message conveyed by the changes to be made to this pension plan is actually more important than the money involved. The message to the Canadian voters is: "Are you listening? Do you understand the problem? And will you lead by example in doing something about this gold plated pension plan?" Bill C-85 misses those marks by a country mile. It does not even come close.
First we will talk about listening, listening to the Canadian voters, listening to the people who are paying our salaries. It was mentioned earlier that no single issue had a higher profile when I was campaigning. It continues to enjoy a high profile at my town hall meetings and as I speak around the province of Ontario. It is a flash point with the voters in Ontario and certainly right across Canada.
This gold plated pension plan sends a message to the Canadian voters that we in this place do not understand what is going on in the real world. If the government has missed the message regarding Bill C-85, then what did it hear? Was there anything its members heard when they were campaigning and supposedly listening to the Canadian people?
I suggest that Bill C-85 reinforces the fact that the government was tuned out; it was not listening but only paying lip service to the voters and giving them the changes they have been looking for. We have the problems of ever-increasing taxes and
lower levels of service. That is the situation the Canadian people want to have addressed. We have high levels of unemployed and underemployed people. I know many of us hear about the young people who find jobs they are overqualified for but they are taking whatever they can get because of the desperate situation they are in.
Our people are concerned about unsafe streets and unsafe communities and they are worried about the deficit and the debt and our children's and grandchildren's future. They want a government that will do something to bring that overspending under control. This revision of the gold plated pension plan would indeed be leading by example in showing they understand the problem and they are prepared to deal with it.
The other message is the voters wanted to have a voice in Ottawa. I think with 205 new members in the House we had a great opportunity to respond to some fresh thinking, a new vision.
Let us examine the old ways. They have not been working, and that is obvious when we look at the level of debt. It is obvious when we look at the state of our country as far as being united.
I read the report of the Citizen's Forum on Canada's Future, better known as the Spicer commission. The commission went across Canada. It performed open soul surgery on 26 million Canadians to find out what the mood of the Canadian people was. The commission spoke to 400,000 Canadians, plus about another 300,000 elementary and secondary school children. Those are impressive numbers.
Chapter 9 of the Spicer commission report deals with responsible leadership in participatory democracy. That was one of the strongest messages the commission received when travelling across Canada. The message was Canadians have lost faith in the political process and in their political leaders. The report was issued in June 1991 and that mood was there in 1993 when we knocked on the doors seeking election to this place. At door after door the response I received was that I was another politician telling the people what they want to hear at the door, and then I would go to Ottawa and do exactly what I was told.
We had a terrible example of that very thing on Wednesday in this place. Government members were being told not to vote. They were in the House but were not to register, not express opinion. It was unbelievable. That is democracy. That is elected officials doing their job, representing the people who sent them here to Ottawa. Whether they were to vote yea or nay, to be denied that opportunity was unbelievable. I was shocked as I am sure Canadians from coast to coast were shocked at what took place. I see the government is laughing at that comment. That is the arrogance it displays for the voters. It could care less.
Pension reform was a critical message the government missed in getting to the Canadian people that it understands and wants to give the Canadian people a voice in Ottawa. We hear that the pension plan is all part of compensation, part of our pay package. It is the old trick of mixing apples with oranges; salaries and pension, gun control, law-abiding and criminals. We seem to have difficulty with the government in getting focused on what the real problem is.
All Canadians want and all we should expect is a fair salary and a fair pension. This idea of trying to justify a gold plated pension plan because we have a lead salary does not wash. We have to deal with one issue at a time, making sure everything we are paid is above board and visible to all Canadians. If it is fair there will not be any problem with that. The Canadian people will accept it. That is not what is happening in this bill.
The Ontario election was another strong message. MPP pensions were a big part of the common sense revolution platform. The common sense revolution identified that voters were fed up with pension plans far more generous than what is available in the private sector. The Tories responded to that and are eliminating their gold plated pension plan and introducing RRSPs, similar to what is available to Canadians from coast to coast.
It is a flash point with the voters. Ontario responded to it. Prince Edward Island has responded to it. Alberta has responded to it and Manitoba has responded it. I cannot believe this message still has not been understood in Ottawa.
Unbelievably this week few members in the House on the government side stood up and represented the people who sent them here, their constituents, the people who voted them into office.
I was so dismayed when I read the Prime Minister praised those members who hewed the party line and scorned those members who stood up and represented the people who sent them to this place; an unbelievable display for the democratic process to scorn those members who stood up and did what they were voted into office to do. Whether you agree with what they did or not, they had every right to do that. Instead of that they were criticized, threatened, taken off committees. They will not have their papers signed next time: "Buck your voters but do not buck me or you are gone".
We already know what happened. Three members were booted off their committees for doing what they were voted into office to do. We know what the message is. It was loud and clear right from the beginning and all Canadians were appalled at what happened here.
We should not have been surprised because we are dealing with a government and a Prime Minister who appointed 14 candidates. Do members know why those 14 candidates were appointed? I quote the Prime Minister when he was in my riding: "You cannot always trust the Canadian voter to appoint the best candidate". That says it all. That mistrust is still here and it was displayed this week.
A cabinet minister had a dollars for contracts dinner. It flies in the face of restoring integrity, honesty and open government and nothing is done to that minister. People who represent their ridings are scorned. A minister is accepting dollars for contracts, and that is all right. It is unbelievable the double standard that exists here. Canadians are watching what is happening here and they are appalled. There is a price to be paid and it is coming.
I wonder who the government is listening to. It is obviously not listening to the voters, to the polls. The polls are all showing this gold plated pension plan has to be changed. I do not think I have read anywhere in the media where there is any support for this plan.
Let me quote from these polls because I think they are very indicative. A poll done by Environics showed 86 per cent of Canadians, 86 per cent of Liberals, say the plan is too generous; 93 per cent of Canadians and 93 per cent of Liberals say fundamental MP pension reform must happen before social programs are touched; 88 per cent of Canadians and 85 per cent of Liberals say make the plan equal to the private plans; 93 per cent of Canadians and 91 per cent of Liberals say the MP plan should have the same limit on growth as the private sector plans; 91 per cent of Canadians and 89 per cent of Liberals say collection should start at 65.
Very clearly Liberals who were part of this poll were almost the same as Canadians from coast to coast. The government is not listening. I cannot recall an editorial supporting Bill C-85. The beauty was the Toronto Star and we all know where the Toronto Star is. It is quoted quite often. An editorial of February 13 with the headline Pension puffery'' statedOur politicians get some of the best pensions in the world. They only have to work six years to qualify and the generous payments adjusted for inflation can last a lifetime. That is why Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's impassioned defence of underpaid MPs in the House of Commons last week offends-in both substance and timing''.
We know where the Toronto Star is relative to the government. Even its paper is not supporting it. If it is not listening to the voters, not listening to the polls and not paying attention to the Toronto Star , to whom is it listening? Who is driving this agenda? I cannot believe this. There is something missing here.