Madam Speaker, you will agree it is quite an honour for the official opposition critic for agriculture and agri-food to speak to a bill introduced by the Minister of Agriculture himself.
The purpose of Bill C-92 is to amend the Canadian Wheat Board-often referred to as the CWB-Act. It proposes to change the way transportation costs are shared by Prairie wheat and barley producers. As a result, prices paid by the CWB to farmers will more closely reflect actual transportation costs.
Currently, the calculation is based on the distance between the farm and so-called pooling points. In other words, from the farm to the port of delivery. The two pooling points are now Vancouver and Thunder Bay. The cost of shipping grain through the St. Lawrence Seaway from Thunder Bay is paid by the Wheat Board. This means the cost is shared by all Prairie producers, irrespective of the port they happen to use or their geographical location.
Of course the port of Thunder Bay does not have the facilities to handle large ocean-going vessels. Wheat and barley will be loaded onto ships that can negotiate the locks and the Great Lakes, and the wheat will be transhipped in one of the ports on the St. Lawrence. The bill does not say which ports. It just says "in the lower St. Lawrence region". The lower St. Lawrence is pretty big. The hon. member for Beauséjour will appreciate that these ports could include Sept-Îles, Baie-Comeau, Trois-Rivières, Quebec City, and Montreal. And there are other ports along the St. Lawrence.
For instance, it could be Baie-Comeau. The grain will then be transferred to huge ships with up to three times the capacity of those coming from Thunder Bay.
The cost of shipping grain through the St. Lawrence Seaway from Thunder Bay is paid, as I said earlier, by the Canadian Wheat Board. This means the costs are shared by all Prairie producers. Producers from the western Prairies who send their grain west to the port of Vancouver are paying part of the cost for farmers from the eastern Prairies whose grain is shipped through the St. Lawrence Seaway. In other words, western Prairie farmers are subsidizing eastern Prairie farmers.
Bill C-92 will shift the pooling point from Thunder Bay to the St. Lawrence Seaway. You will remember, Madam Speaker, if you were listening carefully, but I will repeat, nevertheless, that it is not spelled out which ports along the St. Lawrence Seaway will be part of this new pooling point, but I am told it might be Sept-Îles, Baie-Comeau, Trois-Rivières, or Quebec City, and possibly other ports along the St. Lawrence.
In this way, eastern Prairie farmers who send their grain through the St. Lawrence Seaway will pay the real cost instead of being subsidized by western Prairie producers. This change will have an impact on the price Prairie farmers will get for their grain.
The amount the CWB pays all wheat and barley producers in general will increase. It will increase because the CWB will no longer pay the cost of transportation from Thunder Bay to the St. Lawrence Seaway, since transportation costs are combined and deducted proportionately from market revenues distributed among all producers. This will affect prices.
In the future, they will be calculated from St. Lawrence ports, rather than from Thunder Bay. Producers in Manitoba and eastern Saskatchewan shipping their grain east will pay increased domestic shipping costs, because they will now have to assume the real costs of shipping via ports on the lower St. Lawrence and not just via the port of Thunder Bay.
However, producers in western Saskatchewan and Alberta will no longer have to subsidize a part of the domestic transportation costs of producers living further east. Farmers in the western prairies have been saying for years that the Canadian Wheat Board's choice of Thunder Bay as the point of departure for exports to the east was unrealistic and meant additional and unfair costs for them. I agree with them. Farmers in the eastern prairies have always been aware of this anomaly, but are, understandably, somewhat anxious about the way it is being changed, because it will certainly lower their returns.
This change could take effect this August 1-in two months and three weeks, approximately-if Bill C-92, which we are discussing this morning, is adopted. The bill would indeed affect the returns of producers in various regions. A producer in the eastern prairies living in Brandon, Manitoba, for example, will have a $5.81 a tonne decrease in returns. He was previously dealing with the port of Thunder Bay, but will now have to use a port on the Lower St. Lawrence, which will decrease his returns by $5.81 a tonne.
When there is talk of a decrease of $5.81 per tonne, you must admit, Madam Speaker, that things are getting lean. Producers'net returns are being pared to the bone. The initial freight deduction would increase from $20.34 per tonne to $31.14 per tonne. However, due to a $4.99-almost $5-per tonne higher return from the CWB because of the elimination of the pooled shipping costs, the net effect would be a $5.81 per tonne decrease in returns. If you subtract $20.34 from $31.14, you get $10 and some loose change, minus the $4.99 per tonne producers will not have to pay, hence a decrease in returns of $5.81 per tonne, as I said before.
Obviously, when you look at it on a per tonne basis, it does not amount to much, but for a big grain producer, it adds up to a very substantial amount. The first example was located in the eastern portion of western Canada, in Manitoba. However, if we go further west, and take the example of a producer located near Calgary, Alberta, his return would not decrease but increase by $4.99, let us say $5 per tonne.
And yet, in Calgary, the initial freight deduction would remain the same at $22.19, because freight is still deducted to Vancouver only. However, with the increase in the CWB pool return because of the elimination of the pooled shipping costs from Thunder Bay, since all producers were contributing an additional amount, the net effect for producers in the Calgary area would be a $4.99 per tonne increase in returns.
I realize that all this talk about increasing and decreasing returns might be very technical for my colleagues in the House. But the many western grain producers who are listening to us this afternoon understand perfectly well what I am talking about. They know what it means to gain or lose $5 a ton; it is not an inconsequential amount. If they sell a ton of wheat for $135, a difference of $5 represents an additional income, or a loss, of 3.5 to 4 per cent, and a difference of 3.5 or 4 per cent is very important. Unions are fighting these days for new collective agreements with a 2 or 3 per cent wage increase, and they often have to go through several months of strike to get that.
Since we of the Bloc Quebecois came to Ottawa, 18 months ago already, our position on the transport subsidies has always been very clear. We strongly support deregulating. A system which conceals true prices with subsidies given left and right only brings the type of results we see today, that is a major distortion of markets. And that is exactly what we experienced.
The rail system, as it now operates, is proof enough of that. The criteria used to determine if a railway line should stay open are not the same in the west and in the east. In Western Canada, surprisingly enough, and I want to point this out to my Quebec colleagues in particular, a railway line is supposed to operate in the best interests of the public; in the east however, and especially in Quebec, it must be cost effective.
Let me mention the case of the Quebec Central Railway line which goes from Sherbrooke, through Lévis, to Vallée-Jonction and then from Vallée-Jonction to Lac-Frontière and St-Georges de Beauce, a total distance of 382 kilometres. Quebec Central always neglected its clients and gave poor service on that line; so it lost its clients one after the other. In my opinion, this was planned, to prove to the National Transportation Agency that the Chaudière-Vallée line was not viable. Finally, last year at about this time, Quebec Central, through its parent company Canadian Pacific, requested and obtained permission from the National Transportation Agency to abandon this line.
Of course, politicians, economic stakeholders and the regional county municipalities protested against this abandonment because, once more, we in this great and beautiful country of ours were up against distortions and double standards.
A secondary line similar to the one I mentioned which goes through Thetford and East Broughton, in my riding, would not have been abandoned in the west even if it had not been viable, because it would have been in the public interest. There is a double standard.
The result is that some railway lines, in Quebec especially, which served small and medium size municipalities were abandoned to offset the financial losses of other secondary lines in the west. Needless to say, we will be supporting Bill C-92, because we are in favour of people paying the real cost of transportation, and because we want to put an end to the market distortions that we presently have.
This morning I was at a sitting of the Standing Committee on Agriculture where we heard witnesses representing dairy farmers. I knew that a litre of milk cost about $1.06 but this morning I learned that there was a threshold price of 98 cents, below which the retailer cannot sell his milk, and a ceiling of $1.09, above which the same retailer cannot sell. Most consumers believe that the dairy producers get about 70 cents or 75 cents on this amount of $1.09.
Could you tell me, madam Speaker, what portion of the $1.05 or $1.09 that you probably paid for your litre of milk yesterday goes directly to the producer? This is not a trick question, Madam Speaker. You do not have the slightest idea, and this is not surprising. If I were to ask the same question to the vast majority of my hon. colleagues in the House, most of them would not be able to tell me what portion goes directly to the dairy producers.
Personally, I thought that the producer was getting 50 cents, but it is not even that much. This morning, we were told that the producer was getting 56 cents. You might say that it is more than 50 cents, but on that amount, the producer must pay the transportation costs from his farm to the dairy, or 18 cents. So, if you deduct 18 cents from the 56 cents, you end up with 38 cents.
So the producer gets 38 cents for each litre of milk he produces. Did you know that big dairies have to pay some fees to the retailer to be able to place their product on the display racks? You did not know that. It is very costly.
So a producer gets 38 cents per litre and the dairy will pay up to 20.5 cents to the store owner. The farm producer must feed, milk, and tend the cows, and keep them in a clean environment, which is costly and brings him only 38 cents per litre, whereas the retailer gets 20.5 cents per litre. This is totally unfair. Unfortunately, the vast majority of consumers are not aware of these facts.
I see my colleague from Charlesbourg, who is a veterinarian, and who treated several dairy herds in his practice. He was probably not aware of the fact that dairies have to give 20.5 cents to be able to sell their milk.
I would also like to point out that, in Canada, almost 80 per cent of the markets are shared between four main distributors, four main grocery chains. So they can decide, for example, whether they want to have the products of a particular dairy in their store or not.
In the end, who foots the bill? The consumers. Every year, I see dairy producers asking for an increase. I suppose that in August, the Canadian Dairy Commission will be hearing from the dairy producers that they want to get an increase. They will explain, in great detail, the effects of the 30 per cent cut in subsidies, which will come into effect in a few weeks or a few months, as well as the increase in production costs. I can assure you that the increase will be much more than only a few cents and a small fraction. The increase will have to be justified, when in fact there is no need to justify it to anyone.
I want to get back to Bill C-92. Furthermore, the amendment made to the bill does not involve taxpayers' pockets in any way. In fact, what it involves is a change in the system that affects only the grain growers. So, it is only a matter of setting transportation costs more fairly to reflect reality.
Though we can easily see that this amendment is more suited to the wishes of producers in the western part of the prairies than of those further to the east, we would be severely judged if we interfered in the internal business of grain producers.
However I have doubts about some clauses. By lowering returns of eastern prairie producers, Bill C-92 could well cause a reduction in quantities of grain shipped through the St. Lawrence Seaway. It would be very useful to know the extent of this possible reduction in order to be able to prevent the loss of too many jobs in the ports of the St. Lawrence Seaway.
I would appreciate very much if somebody on the other side, and I am thinking in particular of my colleague and friend for Beauséjour, could respond to this legitimate concern of stakeholders.
The other curious aspect of this bill is that it allows for the use of the grain transportation adjustment fund which, worth $300 million. Around $100 million could be allocated to ensure a smooth transition. At the outset, a $300 million fund over a five-year period was put aside for western grain producers. But in the next three years $100 million will be spread between Thunder Bay and the ports of the St. Lawrence Seaway and there is talk of spending some $40 million for the 1995-96 crop year starting at the end of summer.
This fund was meant to help producers adjust to the new situation, not to maintain the illusion, I repeat, the illusion that freight subsidies are still in place. Fortunately the agriculture minister said a few words about that earlier.
You know, in Quebec, we thought that this government was much more generous towards western grain producers than towards farmers in the east.
Western farm owners or tenants will receive $1.6 billion in direct subsidies. Considering that, in the west, 35 per cent of farms are leased, will this money be given to the owner or the tenant? No decision has been made yet. This $1.6 billion equals $18 an acre, and it is tax-free. Quite a gift.
If you find a $100 bill in the street, you put it in your pocket and do not declare it on your tax return. This is about the same thing. It is a gift, a present from the Liberal government.
Personally, I think it is too much, but grain producers think it is not enough. Liberals saw that in the Manitoba elections. They were almost sure to win, but only managed to get a few of their candidates elected. A real slap in the face. I have more fingers than I need on this hand to count the Manitoba Liberal members. My colleague for Chicoutimi reminds me that there are three of them.
According to opinion polls, the Liberal Party of Canada seems to be very healthy. We could try to find reasons for that. But once in the booth, it seems that Canadians often change their mind. We will see tonight, at 8 o'clock, if the policies and openness of this government really reflect reality when we know the results of the Ontario election.
A few weeks ago, in Ontario, Ms. Lyn McLeod was on cloud nine survey after survey; some of them gave more than 55 per cent of the votes to her Liberal Party. I remember that many of my colleagues in this House were bragging during statements by members. They were saying that Ontarians are intelligent, nice, that they know what they are doing, so they will vote for Lyn McLeod and the Liberal Party in Ontario.
Today, Ontario Liberals have changed their tune. Now, they say that Ontarians are being exploited, that they are naive and do not get the message. That is funny, they are not nice Ontarians any more. Six weeks ago, they were beautiful, nice, smart and today, they are not as much.
There are 99 federal ridings in Ontario. Only one is represented by one of my Reform colleagues, 98 out of 99 are Liberal. Does that really reflect reality? I do not think so. I had the opportunity on several occasions to go to Toronto in the last months. I was able to see that the Liberal Party was not enjoying the fine reputation that some here seemed to be bragging about.
I am inviting the hon. member for Beauséjour to my apartment tonight to watch the election results on the French information network in a friendly atmosphere.
To complete my remarks on Bill C-92, the $100 million to be allocated for adjustment purposes should be available only over the next three years. Farmers should not become dependent on this fund-it should not become a kind of antibiotic-since we might as well go back to the WGTA we have lived with for 98 years, which everyone wanted to revoke but did not dare do so for fear of creating uncertainty.
In three years, this $100 million will be gone, but it would be a shame if producers were left high and dry. This approach may simply delay the problem for three years. Why is this fund not used to really help people adapt or take early retirement?
We in the Bloc Quebecois will support Bill C-92, to compensate a little for market distortion, but this does not mean in any way that Bill C-92 does not have flaws that could perhaps be corrected.
Since I still have a few minutes left, allow me to get back to the problem facing most farmers in Quebec, Ontario and the maritimes. I referred earlier to the amounts the federal government is going to give western grain producers. There is a tax-free $1.6 billion, the $300 million adjustment fund to be spent over five years, and another $1 billion to promote agricultural exports.
The Minister of Agriculture is being very honest. He said earlier that the main purpose of reducing, of revoking the WGTA
is to diversify western agriculture and create value-added industries. Nothing could be better than creating value-added industries for our agricultural products. This is not a Canadian invention. All the countries in the world want added value, not for Canada but for themselves.
The proof is that Japan does not buy canola oil; it buys canola and makes its own oil, fats and margarine. That is quite normal. The Japanese are not crazy. I understand perfectly what they are doing. They come here and buy our wheat, but do their own milling and make their own flour. They do not buy wheat flour in bags. They do the value adding in their own country. They do not come here and buy loaves of bread just to please us. They buy wheat from us and bake their own bread at home.
We will have to play our cards right and, more importantly, be innovative in creating new products and carefully protecting the manufacturing processes, so that no one can come and copy them. So, every one is in favour of value adding, but the concern Quebecers and Ontarians in particular have is that federal subsidies could be used to diversify western agriculture, which would then compete with us on our own markets. I discussed this matter with two colleagues from the Reform Party; one is from Western Canada and the other from Ontario.
Of course, that is more or less what they are up to, but as long as I sit in this house, rest assured, Madam Speaker, that I will look after the interests of the people of Quebec, particularly those of the riding of Frontenac whom I represent. At the risk of ruffling the feathers of our western colleagues, I will say out loud what we, Quebecers, know how to use our brains.
I should point out that there is a new phenomenon at work in this House, and I hope that the people of Quebec will not repeat the mistake they made in 1970, 1972, 1976 and 1978, when they elected to this place 74 Liberal members-you are right, Madam Speaker, to whisper the figure to me-out of a maximum of 75, the exception being my pal Roch LaSalle, who had to run a one-man opposition from Quebec in this place.
We have seen what good it did Quebec to be represented by so many good Liberals, who were supposed to stand up for us. Just think of the War Measures Act. My hon. colleague will no doubt remember that, while there were only a handful of FLQ members, 498 people were arrested without any warrant, and detained for weeks. Tactics used in Russia and others totalitarian states were applied in Canada in the days of the good old Liberal Prime Minister, Pierre Elliott Trudeau.
Léopold Corriveau, the member who represented my riding at the time, voted for the War Measures Act, a bludgeon law only fit for totalitarian states. Yet, any time a totalitarian state implements such measures, the Canadian government, the world leader of democratic governments, is the first to protest and make representations against them.
Last week, in the region where I live, young people from my village were collecting money to buy postage stamps to send letters to Latin-American countries, on behalf of Amnesty International, asking that prisoners of conscience, not to say political prisoners, be released.
I still admire Pauline Julien, but I admired her even more when I was a teenager, for her wonderful songs. Her husband, the late lamented Gérald Godin, was jailed under the War Measures Act. That very feeling man told himself: "In the next election, I will run against the man who contributed to having me unfairly imprisoned, and I will win". That man was one of your friends, Robert Bourassa, in 1976. He was soundly defeated in a French-speaking riding of Montreal's east end by Gérald Godin, who had been illegally jailed under the War Measures Act. That legislation had been supported by 74 Liberal members, with only one opposing it. This is a real shame.
Quebecers' motto is "Je me souviens", I remember. We do remember, but we are very ashamed.
I am pleased to participate in the debate on this bill, but it makes me relive all these episodes, and all the injustices done to Quebec in the past.
I do hope that the day is soon coming when Quebecers will have a country of their own, collect their own taxes, draft their own legislation, and manage their own affairs as they see fit, and I also hope that there will be nothing untoward that we would live to regret for the rest of our lives. Liberal members opposite will have to live with the War Measures Act of 1970 for the rest of theirs.