Debates of Sept. 19th, 1995

Social Programs

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, again the hon. member shows that rather than looking carefully at the important initiatives being taken this summer, she was off on her political campaigns.

If she had been more aware, she would recognize that we have an agreement with the Government of Quebec for about $80 million to support the APPORT program. It directly provides assistance to poor single mothers to help them go back to school and to get income supplement to help their children. That is how we are dealing with poverty in the province of Quebec.

Study Commissioned From Economist Georges Mathews

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Vaudreuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, talking about hiding the truth, the Quebec minister responsible for restructuring claims that the methodology used for the study prepared by Georges Mathews of the Institut national de recherche scientifique was flawed in many ways, which is why it has not yet been made public. As for the author, he claims to have been censored.

Could the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs tell us in what way this study done by Mr. Mathews is so embarrassing to the Quebec government?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the first reason why the Mathews study, which was kept secret by the Quebec government, is so embarrassing to the Parti Quebecois is that it shows that, in recent years, Quebecers provided 21 per cent of federal revenues, while accounting for 24 per cent of total federal expenditures. This clearly contradicts the claims made by the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois.

Second, the study shows that the deficit resulting from the transition would be much higher than indicated in previous studies. The PQ government has always tried to hide the transition costs and that study shows what these costs would be.

Aboriginal Affairs

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the residents of the town of Bosanquet at Ipperwash are the victims of an illegal occupation. The town feels betrayed by the federal government and wants the laws of Canada enforced. The town issued a press release yesterday directed to the federal government and is considering legal options.

Why do federal ministers continue to refuse to meet with the town?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is good to be back. I did not expect to be congratulated by the Reform Party but I think in the last three weeks even Reform could admit that we can deal face to face with aboriginal people.

Quite frankly I went into Ipperwash when everybody said don't go, that it was dangerous. I found spiritual leaders and I found people who wanted the Liberal Party there, who wanted some leadership there. I am sorry that the Reform could not come.

What has happened in Ipperwash is that we have an outstanding agreement from 1942. It is about time that we implemented the agreement. They have been waiting. We have agreed to do it. We will have a credible negotiator there. He will meet with the First Nations and presumably he will meet with the townspeople.

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, everyone agrees that Camp Ipperwash is going to be turned over in an orderly fashion. That is not the question.

The minister of Indian affairs stated that he would not involve himself in situations where there were illegal activities. The people who have not been involved at all in any of this are the residents of the town who have to live with the consequences.

Yesterday the Minister of National Defence stated that negotiation is better than enforcement of the law. Why is the government so obviously refusing to enforce the laws of Canada? Why this double standard?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, even the hon. member realizes that we are dealing with human emotions and grievances go very deep. At the Ipperwash camp I thought it was better that the First Nations be out there policing and they are the peacekeepers there.

We practise the policy of hope. We are not always going to be successful because we never accomplish everything we want to

accomplish. Reformers practise the policy of despair and they prove every day that they have reached their goals.

Post-Secondary Education

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Recently, representatives of various student associations wrote the Prime Minister to express their concerns regarding the impact of the Axworthy reform on the rise in tuition fees and on student indebtedness.

How does the Prime Minister justify his refusal to reconsider the decision to drastically reduce the federal government's transfer payments, as the students were asking him to do?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the hon. member has his arithmetic a little bit mixed up. In fact, this year the federal government will be increasing its transfer for education to the province of Quebec by $20 million. In the meantime, the government of Quebec cut the budget for education by $200 million.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would simply point out to the Minister of Human Resources Development that I did not mention any figures.

My other question is also for the Prime Minister. Since the Prime Minister said yesterday that he wanted to talk about the real problems, is he aware today that by ignoring the students and standing by his decision to cut tuition fees, he is creating a major problem for students?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as Prime Minister, I am quite satisfied with the answer given by the minister responsible.

Canada Pension Plan

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The Canada pension plan is a fiscal mess. On February 2 of this year the HRDC policy director sent a memo to the chief actuary of Canada and said that the Canada pension plan disability benefits program is financial healthy. However, an internal HRD briefing note dated February 23 indicates that a senior policy analyst directly contradicts this assessment.

How can the minister explain this contradiction?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, let me begin by welcoming back the hon. member for Calgary Southeast who has the very important responsibility of being a commentator on matters dealing with the social programs of this country. I am sure she will be offering constructive suggestions along the way which will be a refreshing change from what we have heard so far from members of her party.

First, if I could provide the hon. member with a word of comment or advice. It is unfortunate the hon. member is using language such as "the Canada pension plan is in crisis or in collapse", which I saw her being quoted as saying a few weeks back.

The Canada pension plan is not in a state of collapse. In fact it is providing very secure pensions for all Canadians. We will be changing the Canada pension plan as we are required to do every five years. The Minister of Finance will be meeting with his counterparts to discuss those matters because it is based on a pay as you go system.

We will have to look at funding the program to make sure it is sustainable for generations in the future. That is the position of the government: we want to maintain a sustainable Canada pension plan and we intend to do that.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the hon. minister but I would very much like him to address his answer to me with respect to the question I asked regarding the contradiction in those two documents I mentioned in my first question.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should get used to the fact that all kinds of strange and weird documents will be circulated in this field. I would ask her to check with me to make sure of their authenticity or their reliability.

If those do not interest her, she might check with a document produced by her own party which talks about privatizing the Canada pension plan. This would mean a reduction of benefits for 1.6 million senior citizens.

We would like to check on that before she issues such a document.

Juvenile Prostitution

[Judy Bethel, Liberal, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

The effects of street prostitution are devastating to street involved youth and to those who live in the affected communities. At our street prostitution forum in Edmonton East there was an overwhelming consensus that stronger penalties must be imposed

against pimps and johns who exploit our children and our young people.

What measures will the minister take to protect the victims of prostitution and by when?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things I did during the summer was to visit and travel with police officers in seven Canadian cities, spending evenings with the police, learning something about the criminal justice system from their perspective.

Among other things, I saw for myself the nuisance of street prostitution and the tragedy of juvenile prostitution for the children who are exploited. It served only to deepen the commitment I have to doing something about juvenile prostitution.

I can tell the hon. member that Edmonton was one of the cities I visited. The Edmonton police was one of the forces that was kind enough to take me with them in their work.

I want to tell the hon. member the government is now preparing legislation. We expect to introduce proposals later this year to amend the Criminal Code to deal particularly with juvenile prostitution.

The hon. member should also know we have distributed an options paper to the provinces with respect to other measures and we are awaiting the completion by at least three of those provinces of their own internal consultations before taking further steps.

Health Care

[Audrey McLaughlin, NDP, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. There are many things today that are not unifying Canada but one thing that does unify Canadians is our belief in a national health care system.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. Now that the ministers of health are meeting, as Minister of Finance what message did he give to the Minister of Health to take to this meeting about the federal government's commitment to stable funding by the federal government for our health care?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, in the budget produced last February we stated unequivocally that the principles of the Canada Health Act were there to stay. They were conceived by a Liberal government, they are part of this country's greatest heritage and we will defend them to the hilt.

Subsequently the Prime Minister, the Minister of Health and myself all stated that as part of the negotiations of the CHST we are going to ultimately stabilize cash at a level that will enable us to protect the health care system for as long as Canada is here.

Presence In Gallery

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, today we have some rather special guests with us. In keeping with an initiative that I started in the last session, on your behalf I am inviting distinguished citizens of our nation to be with us. Today we have with us five members who were chosen by our national magazine Maclean's to be part of its honour roll.

If you would, I would like you to hold your applause. I am going to introduce the five recipients. We can all be justly proud of them and for what they were noted. At the end, if you would join me in saluting them on behalf of our Canadian citizens, I would appreciate it.

I would like you to recognize in the gallery Dr. Adolfo de Bold, whose medical research led to the discovery of a substance linked to the control of high blood pressure; the Right Hon. Brian Dickson, whom many of us have known for many years as Chief Justice of Canada from 1984-1990; Colonel Don Ethell, Canada's most decorated peacekeeper; Mr. Bill Kelly, one of our outstanding labour negotiators; and Mr. Arnold MacAuley, a search and rescue specialist. These are our distinguished Canadians.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Point Of Order

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, our Standing Orders provide that matters raised during question period must have to do with, and this is clearly spelled out, government or ministerial responsibilities.

Here is my question: How can the Liberal member for Vaudreuil be allowed to question the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs of Canada about something that is not within his jurisdiction or that of the government, about a document tabled by another government? How can the minister be allowed to be asked a question, and then proceed to give an answer for over two minutes, when the matter falls outside his purview?

[The Speaker]

Dear colleagues, as you know, our colleagues are entitled to ask questions and that is what one of them did. I will

review today's Hansard. The hon. member is right in saying that questions put to government members must be related to their administrative responsibilities. I will look into this matter and return with an answer shortly.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if you were to ask, you would certainly find unanimous consent to withdraw Motion M-208 standing in my name from the order of precedence of Private Members' Business.

[The Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?