Debates of Sept. 25th, 1995

Unemployment Insurance

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, more than a year ago, the Minister of Human Resources Development tabled a green paper in this House. He then conducted consultations with the opposition and members of his own party, followed by consultations with the public and with the provinces. In the February budget, the Minister of Finance clearly set out the fiscal parameters for a federal program review.

All this is public knowledge. We intend to go ahead with the reform, because everyone in Canada agrees that the application of the Unemployment Insurance Act must be changed to adjust it to current economic realities. The Minister of Human Resources Development is now looking for a better way to use this money and make it easier for Canadians and all the provinces, including Quebec, to find jobs and to specialize in order to be better able to find work after a period of unemployment.

We are not like one of the coalition members, Mario Dumont, who said in the May 1 issue of Actualité that he would even go so far as to say that unemployment insurance should be privatized. I do not know whether the Leader of the Opposition or Mr. Larose agree with what Mr. Dumont said.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, Quebecers face a fundamental choice, the choice of the kind of society they want. I think they have the right to know what kind of society this government has in mind.

And among other things, I want to ask the Prime Minister whether we are to understand-and why not admit it, everyone knows-that the minister wanted to carry out the reform and that it was constantly postponed because of the referendum in Quebec. Why will the Prime Minister not admit that the reason for these successive postponements is that the government made the deliberate decision to put off announcing the dramatic cuts that will be inflicted on Quebec's unemployed because of the referendum?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, these reforms will affect all workers in Canada. The impact will be exactly the same in all provinces, including Quebec, so this can hardly be used to argue that we are going to treat Quebec workers differently from workers in other provinces. The reform will be exactly the same, and, as I explained earlier, we have been working on this program for a long, long time.

We never knew the exact date of the referendum. In fact, we expected a referendum in June. Now, according to the latest news, it will not necessarily be October 30. I do not know. The writs have not been issued. So the Minister of Human Resources Development is not operating in terms of the potential date of a referendum that is not yet official.

We know there is considerable debate among the Yes side on whether or not they should go ahead. In any case, we are ready, and Canada will win.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister said that the forthcoming reform will affect all workers. First of all, this is an admission that all the unemployed in Canada will be affected. We know that now. Second, we know that unemployed workers outside Quebec will not be asked to vote on their political future at the end of October.

I think he should understand that we now know what he meant, when he promised he would make us face the music. Is it not obvious to him as it now should be to everyone, that Quebec's unemployed workers will be the first to face the music, the kind of music the Prime Minister promised them, to the tune of more than 40 per cent of the new cuts, which represents nearly $600 million?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the way in which the workers in Quebec, the workers throughout Canada, will be most directly affected is by programs that give them real support to get back to work; give them real tools to find new jobs; give them the kind of support to get them into the labour market in a way that they have not been able to do up to now.

Even the Quebec government, when it is not debating separatism, comes forward with proposals. It had to change its social programs in order to help people find employment. It admits the old passive benefit programs do not work the way they used to.

It strikes me as very strange and very odd that the Leader of the Opposition who on Sunday was saying that he is a member of the group for change is now defending the status quo. He wants to maintain unemployment. He wants to maintain benefits that do not help people get back to work.

If he is really interested in real change then he should be supporting initiatives that the government wants to take to give Canadians the right to have the dignity of work throughout Canada.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Despite all the efforts made by the Operation Unity centre to hide from Quebecers the devastating cuts the federal government is about to impose on the UI program, a secret document on this reform package from the minister's office was leaked to and made public by CNTU president Gérald Larose.

One of the things proposed in this document is to raise from 15 to 35 the minimum number of hours of work per week needed to qualify for UI benefits.

Does the minister admit that his reform will be especially hard on the thousands of women who work part time or on call, by depriving them of UI support?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the mistake the hon. member makes is to treat this document as if it has validity.

The government has not made any decisions yet on the nature of the reform. What is being talked about is some speculation released by the head of the CSN that has no validity in terms of the actual package of reforms to be proposed.

One of the stated objectives of the reforms, as we have said right from the very beginning, is to broaden the coverage of the unemployment insurance program to ensure that the new world of work, which includes a lot of people engaged in non-standard work, would now have more security and better protection. That is a commitment to which I intend to hold.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister did not say anything about improving benefits for the people who need it; he just talked about cuts. And your mandate is to cut at least another $1.5 billion in addition to the $1 billion you have already cut.

Does the minister at least admit that the women who will be especially hard hit by this proposal you are trying to hide will have to work twice as long to qualify for UI benefits and that, if they cannot do so, they will end up on social assistance or be unable to find a way out?

These women have a right to know what the Canada of tomorrow will be like if they vote No.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the Canada of tomorrow will be a Canada where all Canadians, including women, are treated with a great deal of fairness, equity and compassion.

Before the House of Commons right now is legislation dealing with employment equity. The hon. member knows that the government is trying to ensure that the barriers which prevent women from getting full and equal access to the workplace are reduced. She stands up and somehow denies the very initiative that we are proposing today in the House of Commons.

The hon. member takes as gospel a speculative piece from some union leader and says that is the truth when in fact I have sent to her office 24 different studies of evaluations of the UI system that show it does not work and Mr. Speaker-

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would ask you to address the Chair at all times and not to use any props in the House.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

For the past two years the Minister of Human Resources Development has been delaying every meaningful initiative in his department. Much promised reforms to social security have been gathering dust. The white paper on aging is growing older by the day. To top it off, this weekend we learned that changes to the UI system will be delayed until after the Quebec referendum. The

system was in a mess two years ago when the minister took over the department and it is in even more of a mess now.

Why all of the delays? Is it because of the referendum or is the minister just unable to come up with any innovative ways of solving the problems in our social programs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, let me answer the question by way of specific example.

This morning I was able to announce with the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General of Canada that we have introduced, along with the chiefs of police of Canada and representatives of all the school boards, a major program of youth employment which will involve hundreds of young Canadians working with local police to deal with the issue of public safety. That was an initiative which we took that makes a difference.

A few months ago we announced a new program of student loans and grants to help young Canadians gain access to universities. We announced a total reorganization of our department to decentralize its activities so we can deliver programs at the local level.

The reform is already under way. I just hope the hon. member will wake up and smell the roses.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, by refusing to act immediately on such an important national issue, the Minister of Human Resources Development is being used as a separatist pawn. The government should have the courage to challenge the separatist confusion head on and stop playing hide and seek with the national agenda. That is what Canadians are worried about.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I thought the leader of the Reform Party was the separatist pawn.

What Canadians really want is to get a program that works really well. That means taking the time and the interest to put together a combination of initiatives which will help people get back to work, which will give us an unemployment insurance system that is sustainable and payable over the long term and which will enable Canadians to make the kind of choices they want to make in the labour market. That is what Canadians really want.

We started with a public process of consultation. We have received the views of hundreds of thousands of Canadians. Now we are putting down the details and working on it. When it is ready, when we have the best package possible, that is when it will be presented to the House of Commons.

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Human Resources Development to end the confusion and to put an end to the separatist propaganda by announcing concrete proposals for UI reform.

Quebecers are telling us that the status quo is not working, that they are not interested in it. The minister has an opportunity to show the people of Canada, including Quebecers, that we will have the chance to work on a renewed federalism.

It is the Liberal and Tory do-nothing approach to government that Quebecers and all Canadians are tired of.

When the minister has a chance to offer Canadians positive, non-constitutional change, why is he sitting on the sidelines afraid to make a move? Why does the minister not grab his glove and get into the game?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is really concerned about ending separatist propaganda she should stay tuned for October 30. It will be all over at that time and we can get on with building Canada.

The best way in which the hon. member can make a contribution as the new spokesperson on this matter is to start putting forward her own proposals on behalf of her party. I suggest to the hon. member that we are working on developing the specifics.

The member is quite right. The best way we can redefine this country is to do it day by day in the actions we take. It is one reason that as a government we had the initiative to start a major public process so Canadians would know where we wanted to go and could be involved in the process. We consulted broadly and widely. Now we are working on developing the details.

I wish the Reform Party, which so far has absented itself from any discussion that makes any sense, would be the first to participate in this new kind of Canada.

[Yvan Bernier, Bloc, Gaspé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. The confidential document from the minister's office on unemployment insurance reform the federal government wants to keep hidden from Quebecers proposes nearly a 20 per cent reduction in the unemployment insurance cheques of seasonal workers.

Does the minister acknowledge that if he were to make his true intentions with respect to these unemployment insurance cuts

known now, seasonal workers would become aware that they will be getting less money for a shorter period of time?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has once again demonstrated that trying to pose a question based upon a half-baked document and speculative logic and premise simply results in confusion. I will try to clarify it with my answer and I would suggest the hon. member pay attention.

We had a special report commissioned to look specifically at the issue of seasonal work in Canada. There have been a number of specific recommendations from that report and we will be acting on those recommendations.

[Yvan Bernier, Bloc, Gaspé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the minister confirm that he is coming back again to a scheme with two classes of unemployed, heavily penalizing seasonal workers because they will be considered from now on to be chronically unemployed and will receive reduced benefits? Is he aware of this? Is he prepared to admit it?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

No, Mr. Speaker.

Health Care

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

According to federal government sources, the minister is now considering erasing the government's line in the sand on medicare by allowing private clinics. This is to occur only under certain ambiguous conditions. Will the minister confirm today her intention to allow private clinics? Why the flip-flop?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, there has been absolutely no change in this government's policy. I would refer everyone to the letter of interpretation which went out on January 6, 1995. That still stands.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it seems ironic to the Canadian public that this minister and the government have lost the total moral authority to impose their will on the provinces. The provinces are no longer willing nor will they accept orders from Ottawa. The federal government is trying to get out of the corner it has painted itself into. It is nothing more than a sorry attempt at face saving.

Has the minister conceded to the fact finally that the Canada Health Act is not working? Will she give us a date today in the House when she will conduct an open, full review of the Canada Health Act?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Quite the contrary, Mr. Speaker, the Canada Health Act works. Medicare works for Canadians. During the 1993 election this party which formed this government stated in its platform that it would uphold the Canada Health Act. We are keeping our promises.

Let me remind you of what the Reform Party said before the election. I quote: "I want to make it absolutely clear that the Reform Party is not promoting private health care deductibles or user fees". That was Preston Manning in the Toronto Star on October 2, 1993 and after the election: ``We want to amend those sections of the act that deny the provinces flexibility to require some Canadians to pay at least a portion of their health care costs''.

Mr. Speaker, we keep our promises.

[The Speaker]

Where possible, would hon. members please refer to members by their riding.