Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to speak to the motion of the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.
The issue of giving RCMP officers the right to unionize is not a new one. In fact, more recently, since my hon. friend went much further back in history, it goes back to the Gingras decision handed down in March 1994 which established that RCMP officers were entitled to the bilingualism bonus. To reach this conclusion, the Federal Court of Canada had to establish that RCMP officers were part of the public service.
It is immediately clear what the consequences are of the ruling in the Gingras case: if RCMP officers are part of the public service, they are also subject to other legislation that governs members of the public service, and more specifically, the Canada Labour Code and part I of the Canada Labour Code, which confers the right to unionize.
Of course the Gingras decision was not about the right to unionize, so the Federal Court of Canada did not have to rule specifically on that right. By inference, one can at least argue, since that is what is being argued today before the Quebec Court of Appeal, that RCMP officers have the right to unionize. An additional ground is based on the Canadian Charter of 1982, namely that the right of association includes the right to unionize. But we should let the courts rule on that issue.
Meanwhile, what did the government do following the Gingras case? It could have very conveniently taken the case to the Supreme Court, something this government seems very fond of doing. But no, it did not. It tabled a bill in the House. This was Bill C-58, at the time, which, after the House was prorogued, was tabled again as Bill C-30.
This bill is a declaratory bill. In other words, the government is acting like a court. It did not go to the Supreme Court to ask
whether RCMP officers are really part of the public service and subject to the Canada Labour Code.
No. The government is handing down the decision the Supreme Court might have handed down or the decision the government would have liked the Supreme Court to hand down.
In the declaratory provision included in Bill C-58, which has become Bill C-30, the government is saying that, for greater certainty, RCMP officers are not part of the public service and therefore that the Canada Labour Code does not apply to them. Nice way to exclude them.
What the member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve said earlier is characteristic of what is going on in Canada. The RCMP operates and does a tremendous job at the federal level and in eight provinces.
As a member of the government operations committee which reviewed Bill C-58, I can tell you however that there is a deep malaise within the RCMP. It seems to me that the present system of representation by divisional representatives is not working or working poorly. There appear to be at least two diverging views. On one hand, we have the RCMP command telling us that everything is working fine, and on the other, we have members and members' representatives telling us that it is not working. There are two sides to the coin.
For my part, I have reasonable doubt that the system is not working; the RCMP commissioner who, to all intents and purposes, is a separate employer can send a dispute to arbitration and chose to abide or not by the adjudicator's decision.
Listen, if I prosecute you in a civil court and win, you will have no choice, I will have the decision enforced. Willy nilly, you will have to abide by it. This is one element that is missing. If, in our society, one party in any civil suit could escape the application of a ruling against it, we would have a pretty strange judicial system.
That is exactly the kind of system that members of the RCMP have to deal with. We do not want to force them into unionization. We want them to have the legal framework required so they may chose freely whether they want a union or not.
Earlier, I heard my colleague, the member for Wetaskiwin, say that in his region, several officers told him they did not want to be unionized, that very few had attended the briefing meeting. This reminds me of Quebec, a long time ago, when unions were not very popular and when, if people were present at information sessions on unionization, a trustee or some other official would take down their names to be sure their contract would not be extended or they would be made to change schools if they were too vocal.
Clearly, there is no legislative framework which governs these things; no one can impose sanctions if an employer hampers the fair and usual process of requesting union certification. It is quite easy to understand why the officers will not go to the meetings.
But the best way to find out is to give them their legal framework, to apply to them Part I of the Canada Labour Code, with one major exception. Contrary to what was said earlier, contrary to what my good friend, the hon. member for Vaudreuil, was saying earlier, the right to strike was never requested in any way for officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; they are not asking it themselves.
In a properly working society, with the exemplary work that RCMP officers do, this right, I believe, must not be recognized. But should we go for mandatory arbitration, a final offer? This is a system that can be discussed for a long time. But the right to strike must not be granted at that level, and neither for the Sûreté du Québec or the OPP in Ontario.
They must have the right to free bargaining, to confronting ideas, to negotiating, to making compromises, to improving a climate. The climate must be improved, otherwise the pressure will build up and things will get out of hand in the RCMP. We will end up with a service in which things are as bad as with CSIS, where just about everything is rotten. We cannot get information, whether it is from the director of the service, or from the Security Intelligence Review Committee, which is supposed to monitor CSIS but rarely reports to us, particularly to the sub-committee on national security, on which I have the honour of sitting, along with the hon. member for Vaudreuil, whose riding may soon be called Vaudreuil-Soulanges. These are the reasons.
The best way to solve the issue is to provide a legislative framework in which officers will be allowed to vote. Let them decide, through a vote, whether they want to unionize or not, whether they want to form an association.
If the vote is negative but takes place within an appropriate legislative framework, it will be respected, just like the no vote was respected in Quebec, on October 30, 1995. If the vote is affirmative, it will be respected because the Canada Labour Code will apply. We do not want to force anyone to join a union, but the reverse should also be true, in that we should not prevent people who want to form a union from doing so.
The best way to proceed-and that is what the hon. member for Vaudreuil is indicating and he would probably like to have another chance to speak to correct a few statements he made earlier, because I think the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve has seriously shaken him, and when he gets an opportunity to do so he might change his mind. As for me I would be willing to let him change what he said if he wants to-but the best way to proceed would be to let people vote.
As it will be for us in the next elections in the riding of Vaudreuil and in the riding of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, and probably in your riding too, Mr. Speaker, there will be several candidates, people will put an X beside a name and we will count up the votes. Everything is organized. Election officers, returning officers and clerks, are appointed, the system is there and working.
People are not told in advance that they have to select this or that person to represent them. People make their decision. Fundamentally, let us apply to unionizing the electoral system that is applied in Canada.
Let us ask the members of the RCMP if they want the Canada Labour Code applied or not. If they say no, the problem will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Some members claim that they do not want to form a trade union. If they say yes, then the Canada Labour Code will of course apply, but without the right to strike. I will not fight for the right to strike for policemen in Canada.
One thing seemed strange to me. When I asked at RCMP headquarters, during consideration of Bill C-58 in committee, the only reason given to me for the opposition there to unionization was that RCMP officers do work not done by any other police force in Canada.
I asked for examples. They said the protection of ambassadors. It is true. For example, here in Ottawa, the RCMP is responsible for the protection of ambassadors. I was told that it is also responsible, or is supposed to be responsible, for the safety of the Prime Minister's residence.
It is also true that, in Toronto and Quebec City, two provincial capitals, the OPP and the Sûreté du Québec are responsible for the protection of the consular corps. The activities of the consulates are exactly the same as those of the embassies. So, if that is the only distinction, let the members of the RCMP be treated just like their colleagues of the Sûreté du Québec, the police of the Montreal Urban Community and the OPP. Let them enjoy the same benefits as their counterparts in the provinces and cities.
I would even go farther. On the government operations committee, my colleague from Surrey-White Rock-South Langley put forward an amendment to Bill C-58 whereby part II of the Canada Labour Code would apply to the RCMP and give its members occupational health and safety protection. I was the only one to support her proposal, which was rejected by the three members of the government on the committee. Why should we refuse to give occupational health and safety protection to the members of the RCMP?
That said, I will take my seat to allow my colleague who moved the motion to make a nice conclusion.