Debates of Nov. 19th, 1996

Canada Labour Code

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to speak in support of this bill. I begin by reinforcing what my colleagues have said about the fair and balanced nature of this legislation.

I come to this discussion with a unionist background, someone who has sat at the other side of the table. It is very important when we are having this kind of discussion to keep in mind that in fairness and in order to make a system work, there not only must be a perception of fairness and balance but there must be fairness and balance in essence.

As some in this House have already mentioned, the alternative is to be draconian, to not allow people the ability to pull their services and on the employer side to lock employees out. If we want to go to that extreme then it is not necessary to find a fine balance and to maintain the fairness which the Canada Labour Code has had for a number of years.

Before I get too far into my presentation I will suggest that what we see here today is a consensus that was arrived at between employers and employee groups across the nation. As the minister has already said, it may not be some grand scheme to totally reform the Canada Labour Code, but there are a number of steps and changes to improve the code, which is what this is all about.

This is good for Canadians and Canadian business. I will look at some of the ways the government's amendments will help the employers of Canada. From my perspective it would be very easy to spend my short time talking about the importance to labour but I will talk about the importance of these amendments for employers. If I can feel comfortable, I imagine a number of members would also feel comfortable. Before I do that, I would like to say a few words about the consultation process.

This consultation process is one that a lot of members in this House, whether they are new or have been here for a number of terms, are always arguing; the Government of Canada or the provincial jurisdictions do not do enough.

One of the things that is unique in the labour field is that very little takes place without extensive consultation. The consultation process was actually initiated some two years ago when the government was made aware of the need for momentous changes

and the fact that it wanted to, because of the way the work force was evolving, make changes to the Canada Labour Code.

I am sure those in this House will not argue that there has not been consultation. The Sims task force was going across the country. The task force went to Halifax, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton, Montreal and Winnipeg to meet with Canadians and to listen to their views. The task force also held academic round tables at the universities of Laval, Toronto and Calgary. Of course it met with numerous interested parties in informal meetings and received a great number of written submissions.

As we have heard in earlier speeches in this House, the task force set up a labour management working group and considered the recommendations of the industrial inquiry commission. I will not go into that because suffice it to say this group did a remarkable job and did it with a lot of determination.

It does not surprise me from my past background that the labour side of the discussions with employers and employees working together has always been through labour relations, its hallmark and the reason why the legislation that is now before us has been very effective over the years and of course will be more effective once the new amendments are in place.

At the end of its consultations the group presented its report entitled "Seeking a Balance". The task force's recommendations were based on four solid principles and I think we should keep these principles in mind.

First, that the existing Canada Labour Code basically continues to serve its constituents well. This obviously means that the economy will be moving along at a good clip and having some fairness and balance in the system for both employers and employees.

Second, stability is highly desirable and pendulum like changes in the code do not serve the best interests of the concerned parties or of the general public. That is really one of the major issues that the minister and the different consultation groups focused on during these discussions. It is not acceptable either from the right or left wing's perspective in this country to think that you can make major pendulum swings in that balance I was talking about. The balance is so narrow in its parameters that if you move too far one way or the other it makes for very difficult negotiations and discussions between the two parties.

If we were to do as some members have suggested across the way and remove the right to strike and have final offer arbitration, that of course is a form of getting where you want to go but it does necessitate making those dramatic pendulum swings that I was talking about which could cause some disruption to a very successful labour relations regime that we in Canada have grown accustomed to.

Third, that consensus between the parties is the best basis for legislative change. That goes back to the official opposition's interest and making changes where there is no consensus. If you do that you could be accused in this case of trying to drive a round peg in a square hole. If it does not fit too well, so be it; we are trying as politicians should to be leaders in a field and ahead of the public and ahead of the consensus that may evolve over time.

Do not get me wrong, I think quite frankly in Quebec there are certain parts of its labour code that are effective to that province and that particular society, and that is good. However, we are not dealing here with one province. We are dealing with a total nation, a very large piece of geography, and a number of other provinces.

We cannot take one specific issue in one specific province and try, as much as we might like to, to make it fit. It just does not work that way.

It is important to know that this piece of legislation and the amendments we are proposing are a consensus between the parties which, in labour relations, is a very smart thing to do indeed.

The fourth recommendation should be enactable, long lasting and based on the concept of volunteerism. I believe all will agree that these principles are well founded. It is easy to see why the task force was able to come up with recommendations that were endorsed by both business and labour groups.

Today we are talking about the support of these groups, business and labour, as though it were quite a common thing. We all know that is not true. Everyone knows that the aims of organized labour and management, job security on one side and the most effective use of human resources on the other, are difficult to reconcile. Anyone who has been involved, like I have, across a negotiating table will know that it is sometimes a miracle to see that we can get these kinds of agreements without all the difficulty that can occur.

Without going through a number of examples of some of the groups, I would like to mention why the government has introduced certain amendments. We understand that measures which help resolve labour disputes faster and in a more positive environment are good for employers, workers and all Canadians. What these particular amendments will do is streamline some of these aspects of the legislation.

On the amendments that address the bargaining cycle and how they benefit employers, a primary objective of this group of amendments is to reduce delays in the collective bargaining process. The benefit of accomplishing this should be clear to anyone. One amendment will allow a notice to bargain to be served within four months prior to the expiry of the collective agreement. At present it is three months.

The task force thought that an earlier opening date would be established to encourage earlier attention to collective bargaining and to give the parties enough time to conclude an agreement before the expiry of the previous one.

Another amendment will provide for a single stage conciliation process. Both labour and management question the effectiveness of the current system which can involve two stages and can take a long time to resolve disputes. Single stage conciliation is one of the points upon which labour-management working groups agreed.

I hope I get a chance to speak on that particular issue at a different reading because it is important to get into how the conciliation process works and how important it is to the Canada Labour Code and labour relations in Canada.

There is the need, under this section, for a secret ballot vote before workers are allowed to strike. This vote will have to be taken no more than 60 days before the right to strike is exercised. While most unions already hold such votes, the Canada Labour Code does not require it at present. The requirement to hold a strike vote no earlier than 60 days prior to strike action will ensure that the vote is less of a bargaining tactic to pressure employers with more of an authentic expression of the employees' wishes. I can say from experience that at times that could be a bargaining tool.

Before people get too far into these amendments they should spend some time with their local labour groups and get a feel for them. They will find that there is a consensus in these amendments.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today to Bill C-66, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code and the Corporations and Labour Unions Returns Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts. As the minister was saying in his speech, the purpose of this bill is to amend the Canada Labour Code, which has not undergone an in-depth revision in more than 25 years. Therefore, it had to be modernized with a view to the future.

What is unfortunate is that, in the end, the government has come up with an incomplete reform. Certain important issues, which have been around for several years and are still of considerable interest, are not covered by this reform.

Here, in this House, we studied two private members' bills to prohibit the use of replacement workers, and the number of members voting in favour of these bills went up each time. The last time, the number was almost sufficient for the bill to pass. However, in the government bill before us today, there are no concrete measures to prohibit the use of scabs.

It is even somewhat offensive, because instead of saying nothing about that, the bill contains measures that are a bit ridiculous. It says that employers who negotiate will be allowed to use replacement workers, whereas employers who do not negotiate will not be allowed to do so. Everybody knows that, in the world of labour relations, it is very easy to appear to negotiate.

Any employer can pretend that he is negotiating. He can show up every morning at the bargaining table without any progress ever being made. We must not forget that the Canada Labour Code applies to areas such as telecommunications, radio, broadcasting, international and interprovincial transportation, airports, air carriers, ports, long-shoring, grain transportation and banking. We all know the labour relations background of these industries, how they can treat people and the impact of technological change in these areas. It is very clear that, if the government does not change its position, it will be missing a crucial element of this reform, namely to have a bill that prohibits the use of scabs, like the one Quebec has had for 15 years.

Quebec's experience shows that there has been a very obvious improvement in labour relations and that this legislation preventing the hiring of strike breakers is an important contributing factor. The minister, who represents a Quebec riding, should have been more sensitive to the representations made, all the more so as the last strike at Ogilvie Mills in Montreal, which lasted almost two years, was primarily about this issue. He represents a riding almost next door to that company's location. Representations were made to all the present federal ministers with ridings in Quebec, and there was lobbying somewhere, and this is all the government can come up with. It is not delivering the goods.

Therefore, giving an employer the right to hire strike breakers if he negotiates is purely cosmetic and is not an acceptable solution. It is essential that this be re-worked in committee.

Another current issue, the right of RCMP officers to form a union, has often been raised here.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have not always been good friends of Quebec's sovereignists. However, it is a police force that has duties to perform and that is entitled to a certain level of independence with respect to its employer in order to be able to carry out its work effectively. This demand has also been on the table for a number of years. There are practices that exist in labour relations with police forces in a number of Canadian provinces. Unions have been formed and are doing well, and labour relations are good. Here also, the federal government is sidestepping its intended reform.

The minister says there has been no reform for 25 years and that an overhaul is necessary. If we want an in-depth reform, we need to have these two elements at the outset, namely a provision prohibiting the hiring of scabs and the possibility for RCMP staff to become unionised.

There is another area where the minister has not listened to the recommendations made by the consultation committee. It is about appointments to the Canada Industrial Relations Board. Management as well as unions wanted board appointments based on lists proposed by management and union representatives.

Yet, the minister has left the door open to appointing people who might not meet with the approval of one of the parties involved in industrial relations but who might nevertheless meet with the approval of the Liberal Party of Canada, for example. At any rate, the minister is leaving a door open, is leaving some room for political manoeuvering, in short, for political appointments.

I think the minister will have time to think about that. I hope the committee will, in its wisdom, add amendments to ensure that appointees are truly experts in the field, so that the Canada Industrial Relations Board will have a solid and enviable reputation for its competence and for the fact that its members truly represent the world of work meaning both employers and employees.

Unfortunately, in the first supposedly major reform in 25 years, we see no reference to preventive withdrawal for pregnant women. In Quebec, those measures already exist and have been in effect for a number of years.

Here, in Canada, there is no mention of this at all. However, there are sectors where the number of female workers is very significant and where working conditions may be difficult. More and more new technologies are being used, and often their impact is not sufficiently known. We cannot afford to put a pregnant woman or her child at risk. This is not an area where we can proceed by trial and error.

I think that, considering the level of our modern technologies, society in Canada and Quebec should be just as innovative in the way it treats workers. As far as preventive withdrawal for pregnant women is concerned, I hope that in committee, the government will improve on its proposals to reform of the Canada Labour Code. I hope various groups will make representations and persuade the government to change some of its positions and be sensitive to certain arguments, including this one, and to understand the relevance of taking action.

I think the women of Canada would be grateful to the government if they saw this provision added to the bill, and it is quite surprising that the present government has failed to understand the relevance of making changes of this kind for the entire sector regulated by the Canada Labour Code.

In concluding, I may say that the Canada Labour Code is another flagrant example of the fact that jurisdictions in Canada are unnecessarily fuzzy. Within the same province, some people come under the Quebec Labour Code and some people under the Canada Labour Code. There is no similarity between the two. In Quebec, under working conditions which should be the same, some workers will not be covered under the antiscab legislation while others will be because they come under the Quebec Labour Code. This situation makes no sense to me.

This is the result of the implementation of the Canadian Constitution through the years without any amendment or improvement, and today we have two classes of citizens and double standards. This means that some workers come under a provincial code which is closer to the people-the government is more in touch with reality, more aware of certain issues such as the protective re-assignment of pregnant workers. The fact that it has been responsible for the implementation of social legislation might have heightened its sensitivity. It might also be due to the kind of governments we have had since it is indeed an area where Quebec has been ahead for a long time.

Last week, we celebrated the 20th anniversary of the Parti Quebecois. Obviously it implemented a wide range of measures with positive results. To conclude, I will say that the opportunity is still there for the Government of Canada to get with it and bring about its reform.

We do not proceed with a reform of the Canada Labour Code every year, in fact there had not been one in 25 years, therefore the Canadian government should do its job in committee. To conclude, I will repeat what I believe to be the four major points: make sure effective antiscab measures are in place; allow the appointment of members to the Canada Labour Relations Board from lists provided by those involved; take measures providing for the protective re-assignment of pregnant women; and, as a whole, see to it that measures which will be taken will ensure that we have a real Canada Labour Code in the years to come.

[Nick Discepola, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is also with great pleasure that I support the motion to refer Bill C-66 to the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development.

This committee stage will be the last step in a long series of consultations that were held across Canada on this bill which updates the Canada Labour Code.

I believe the labour minister clearly demonstrated how seriously he took this reform. He also showed some remarkable qualities as a conciliator and a unifier. His objective was a balanced, fair and

equitable reform. He certainly reached this objective since all the parties involved largely approved the bill.

Of course, all the parties would have liked the minister to totally support their own position, and many will go before the committee to seek amendments in their favour. It is normal, predictable and quite in line with the political and parliamentary tradition of this country.

However, all those who participated in the numerous consultations on the reform said they were satisfied that the minister had respected the consensus reached by the parties. I am not surprised. I know the labour minister is a man of his word who says what he means and does what he says.

I am happy that others have now discovered his great qualities. Under the circumstances, it is rare for labour and management to agree on something, particularly on the qualities of a labour minister.

Naturally, the Bloc Quebecois members maintain that the minister did not go far enough, that he should have adopted the unions' position with his eyes closed. Once again, the Bloc Quebecois members are lapsing into excess and abuse. It is always all or nothing. They cannot find a middle ground or reach a consensus.

Let us take for example the clause of the bill dealing with replacement workers. The Bloc is saying: "We must do what is done in Quebec, ban them entirely". Indeed, in the 1970s, the Quebec government passed legislation banning replacement workers. The economic and social context in 1996, on the eve of the next millennium, is quite different from what it was 20 years ago, and businesses are restructuring. They must face competition not only from other Canadian businesses, but also from competitors all over the world. In many cases, unfortunately, this results in hundreds of lay-offs.

We are no longer in the era of all or nothing draconian solutions. The labour minister understood that well and wants to modernize the Labour Code to ensure that everyone has rights and that the parties seek to resolve their disputes before resorting to a strike or a lockout.

If Bloc members look closely at Bill C-66, they will see that everything has been provided to rationalize procedures and to allow the parties to talk to each other, to resolve disputes among themselves or to call upon the Canada Industrial Relations Board to assist them. It is in this perspective that the minister has provided that, under normal circumstances, employers will have the right to use replacement workers during a legal work stoppage.

However, the minister did not want to leave workers without any resources, which is why his formula is so brilliant in my opinion. Should an employer use replacement workers to undermine the union's capacity to ensure proper representation, this would be perceived as an unfair practice, thus warranting the referral of the matter to the board.

If, after reviewing the case, the board determines that the employer's action does constitute an unfair labour practice, the board will now have the power to ban the use of replacement workers for the duration of the dispute. That is what I call an articulate and modern position suited to the working world of the year 2000. Employers have rights, and so do the workers.

In addition, the minister proposed other amendments which complement this important measure and give it even more value. First, he restructured the board. In the future, the new Canada Industrial Relations Board will be composed of a chairperson and neutral vice-chairpersons appointed by the government. Each case heard by the new board will be presided over by one of its neutral vice-chairpersons.

Unlike its predecessor, this will be a representational board made up of an equal number of members representing employers and employees. This was not the case in the past. In the future, both employees and employers will have a say. They will be able to take an active part in the board's decision making process. For me this is a major step forward and the Bloc members should at least recognize it for what it is.

Also, Bill C-66 sets out a new procedure to be followed before a work stoppage. The notice to bargain may be served four months ahead instead of three months, to give the parties more time to discuss and reach an agreement. A secret vote on any planned work stoppage must be held within 60 days of a strike or lockout. Again, the government wants the parties to fully realize the importance of such action and not make any rash decisions.

Another major amendment proposes that workers who have been on strike or locked out will be first in line for their old jobs. It is important for employees to know that once a work stoppage has ended, no one else will be able to take their jobs. In a nutshell, I believe workers have made important gains with this reform, and they are well aware of this.

I find it unfortunate that Bloc members act as the unconditional mouthpieces of unions. As the fine representatives of all the people who elected them, including employers, I believe they should make allowances and not see everything in black and white. Above all, they should support the fair and balanced bill the Minister of Labour has put before us. I urge them to think about all this.

They could take advantage of the standing committee meetings to ask the minister any question they may have. I hope that, when

Bill C-66 comes back to us, they will agree to support this excellent reform of the Canada Labour Code.

[Osvaldo Nunez, Bloc, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the debate on Bill C-66, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code, which was tabled by the labour minister on November 4. This legislation implements reforms to the collective bargaining provisions of part I of the Canada Labour Code, which govern federally legislated private sector employers and unions.

The key components of this reform are: the creation of the Canada industrial relations board, with extensive powers; changes to the conciliation process; the establishment of the rights and obligations of the parties during a work stoppage; the requirement to continue essential services during a conflict; making the undermining of a trade union's representational capacity during a strike or lockout an unfair labour practice; improving access to collective bargaining for off-site workers; and a requirement to maintain services affecting grain shipments, in the event of a work stoppage.

I have many criticisms regarding this bill, but for now I will only deal with the issue of replacement workers. Clause 42 prohibits the use of replacement workers only when an employer uses them for the purpose of undermining a trade union's representational capacity. For example, if an employer refuses to negotiate while using replacement workers at the same time, the new Canada industrial relations board could prohibit such a practice.

However, a company merely has to negotiate with the union, even if only for the sake of it, to avoid this prohibition and continue to use scabs. It is inadmissible. It will be difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate that this unfair practice seeks to undermine a trade union's representational capacity. In most cases, the conflict will have been resolved without such a practice being confirmed.

The basic principles of our collective labour relations system make it clearly illegitimate to hire replacement workers during a strike or a lock-out. This practice brings intruders into a dispute affecting exclusively two clearly identified parties, throws off the balance of power, and curtails the freedom of expression of strikers.

The rationale of economic pressure is that the loss of salary will be an incitement for the workers to be cautious and accept a settlement as soon as possible. It should be the same for the employer. At any rate, there is no comparison between the day to day economic hardship of strikers and that of an employer who can keep the production going with the help of management workers.

During a strike, employees can go into debt for a long time and jeopardize their professional career, not to mention their financial problems. During my long experience in the labour movement, I witnessed some tragic situations in this regard.

When an employer hires replacement workers, strikers have an immediate gut reaction of utter frustration. They feel personally targeted. They see this practice as unfair. The focus of the conflict shifts from working conditions to the hiring of scabs and job stealers. That frustration brings a degree of harshness into the conflict. That gut reaction of strikers is all the more serious since employment has become such a challenging problem in our society. Therefore, the use of replacement workers has a very negative impact on the strikers' behaviour.

Organized labour is very disappointed by the fact that the government has not totally prohibited the use of scabs in its amendments to the Canada Labour Code. Nancy Riche, Executive Vice-President of the Canadian Labour Congress, has condemned the government for once again not taking this opportunity to put an end to confrontation in the event of a strike or a lockout.

Clément Godbout, president of the FTQ, also complains that nothing in this bill prohibits the hiring of scabs. The FTQ represents almost 100,000 salaried employees under federal jurisdiction.

On October 22, I introduced Bill C-338 to amend the Canada Labour Code and the Public Service Staff Relations Act. The purpose of this bill is to prohibit the use of replacement workers during a strike or a lockout, as is currently done in Quebec and in British Columbia.

The bill also contains provisions to ensure that essential services are maintained during a labour dispute. It is also aimed at maintaining a balance between the negotiating parties in order to shorten labour disputes and avert violence. My bill will affect some 700,000 Canadian workers under federal jurisdiction.

By introducing Bill C-338, I fulfilled a commitment I made to Canadian and Quebec workers. I think anti-scab measures are urgently needed.

I urge the numerous Liberal members who, in the past, supported this kind of measure to exert pressure on the labour minister and their government. For once, the government should listen to the demands of the unions in this area. The Bloc Quebecois and I will pursue our efforts until legislation to prohibit the hiring of replacement workers is passed.

Earlier, I was listening to the labour minister who said that the absence of a consensus between the unions and management led him to decide not to include real anti-scab provisions. Such an excuse is unacceptable. There will never be a consensus in this regard. The government should have the fortitude to made such important and crucial decisions, as the Quebec government did in

1. The measures taken at the time by the Quebec government are now instrumental in settling labour disputes as soon as possible.

I must say that I am also disappointed to note that the bill does not include any provision concerning the precautionary cessation of work for pregnant women. In Quebec, for instance, pregnant women are protected by the Act Respecting Occupational Health and Safety. However, Quebec women working for the federal government are not covered by this important provision.

I also regret that the bill introduced by the minister does not give RCMP employees the right to negotiate their working conditions through collective bargaining. I have a lot of reservations about this bill. We will have the time to express our concerns in committee and then to debate the issue in the House at third reading.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Hamilton—Wentworth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise in support of Bill C-66. I would like to address my remarks to one aspect of the bill, that portion which deals with replacement workers.

When looking back over the union movement, at the turn of the century we see it starting with the sense that workers should receive fair value for their labour. As time went on the union movement in Britain, Europe, the United States and Canada grew stronger and stronger, particularly in the post-war period, after the second world war.

In the 1970s and 1980s the driving force of unionism transposed from this desire to have a value for labour-full value for the labour that the worker put in-to something that was a little bit more, the principle that the worker should share in the profits of the company.

In my own view, consequently what happened with organized labour, certainly in the 1970s and 1980s, was a sense that if unionized workers were employed by a company that was doing very well in the market then they bargained for higher and higher wages and benefits. I do not think that any of us would quarrel very much with that in principle. It seems reasonable that if the work force is very much a part of a company, it should benefit just as shareholders do when a company does well.

However, times change and sometimes they change very rapidly. In the late 1980s and coming into the 1990s we have seen the phenomenon of the global markets. First was North American free trade and now certainly a very strong trend to world free trade. This is a change in the situation with respect to countries like Canada in terms of their relationship with their work forces.

It now becomes imperative, if a country's industries are going to compete on the world stage, that they be cost efficient, especially in the area of labour. Thus we find the situation where, particularly in the United States, for example, the union movement is under assault simply because the average American worker, particularly the unskilled labourer, is in direct competition with the workers of Mexico, the Far East and other places.

We have two trends running here. We came out of the eighties with the desire to give unionized workers a greater share in the earned benefits of a company and then the contrary pressure that companies have to be more and more competitive.

In 1993 the Ontario government introduced legislation that banned the use of replacement workers. This legislation was a logical evolution in the union movement. It gave more power to the unions and better guarantees to workers that they would share in the profits of the company.

This law was too late. It was behind its time. By 1993 it was very clear to anyone who was interested in business, finance and watching world markets that this law, which the New Democratic government in Ontario had passed, was not in the best interests of the Ontario economy being able to compete in other markets.

There was quite a bit of resistance at the time the legislation was introduced and considerable resistance thereafter. There was a simple reason for this. I can cite from my own experience in the communications industry that technology had created a situation where replacement workers in the high tech industries could be recruited from home. They could actually operate from their homes rather than go to an office. The whole idea of banning replacement workers made it very difficult for high tech companies to create an environment where they could use workers who were no longer on the premises but were operating outside of the city where the company was located.

In the high tech area the ban on replacement workers had a very negative consequence to the competitive position of high tech industries in Ontario. Because it gave such clout to organized labour, it was a threat to those companies which sought to renegotiate contracts to bring the level of remuneration to the workers down to a level that was more competitive in the world markets in which they had to compete.

When the new Conservative government was elected in Ontario one of the first things it did was repeal that legislation. I am not entirely in agreement with what the Ontario government did. I believe that even though we have these pressures from world markets on organized labour, we as Canadians and as politicians have a basic responsibility to defend the traditions of organized labour.

In the final analysis, organized labour fights for the rights of workers. We have every reason to want to see, when these terrible pressures come to bear on organized labour, that it does not ultimately collapse under the pressures, as indeed is happening in the United States. The union movement in the United States is

undergoing severe changes. Its influence and size is reducing very rapidly.

Bill C-66 addresses the problem of replacement workers. There was a very excellent report entitled "Seeking a Balance". It reviewed the Canada Labour Code. I commend this document to people who are interested in the economic situation vis-à-vis labour unions in Canada. It is an excellent review and an excellent analysis.

It addresses the problem where corporations have the desire to break unions because of market forces. This tempts companies to confront labour unions and to even lock them out. Then there is the danger of very bitter and brutal strikes and ultimately the destruction of particular unions. Because there is so much labour in the marketplace, it is a real danger that companies can replace the unionized workforce with scab labour. That is not a good thing either.

Instead of banning replacement workers entirely, as was done in 1993 in Ontario, and as laws exist right now in British Columbia and Quebec, Bill C-66 provides that a company facing strike action can bring replacement workers on board for the duration of the strike as long as it is made very clear that it is not trying to do so as an attempt to break the union.

After the labour dispute has been settled, Bill C-66 requires a company that has used replacement workers to hire back the unionized employees. That avoids a situation where a company may deliberately try to break a strike by using replacement workers and then hiring the replacement workers after the strike.

The legislation takes a very positive step in addressing the conflicting pressures of the union movement that is faced with these overwhelming global market pressures which try to reduce the effectiveness of the unions.

This is the kind of balance that the Liberal government in its wisdom is able to strike between the very conservative political right which would see the elimination of most labour unions and the very left of the left, the left wing of the spectrum which has over past years created a situation where unions have more power than is in the interests of Canada's competitive situation. I really endorse that aspect.

I would like to add one other remark about a very positive aspect of the legislation. It addresses a past problem involving grain handling at our ports. Situations have arisen in the past where the country was literally held to ransom when our ports were shut down, not by the transportation unions alone, but by affiliated unions, some very small unions on occasion, that have set up picket lines. Of course other union organizations respect these picket lines and on occasion it led to the paralysis of our ability move valuable commodities.

The provision in the bill which limits the right to strike, to paralyze ports, to those unions directly engaged in that form of activity is a very positive one.

I hope that members on all sides of the House will see fit to support the bill. It is a very good bill.

[Bernard St-Laurent, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Madam Speaker, labour ministers have been coming and going for three years, and they have all promised us a renewed Canada Labour Code. It was supposed to be a little marvel.

Well, a few weeks ago, the minister finally delivered this little marvel. The bill is not all bad, but it certainly is no marvel. Some aspects of the bill are what we could call an improvement, but others are deficient. Let us look first at something that I have noticed as being a small improvement.

I am talking here about the recognition of the family residence as a place of work. We have to live in 1996. We are approaching the 21st century. Things have changed and it has become normal. It is a good thing that the government has thought of including this in the Canada Labour Code. Such a decision must have been inspired by certain speeches from members of the Bloc Quebecois.

It is important that the Canada Labour Code create a balance of power. I was listening to my colleagues opposite who were praising the newly tabled bill. They were saying that, finally, there was a balance of power, continually claiming that the balance that existed before had even been improved.

A few moments ago, when talking about the antiscab legislation in Quebec, a member even said that it was out of date, that we had to live in 1996 and that the labour environment had changed. It is sad to hear these kinds of things. We know that the antiscab legislation has been in force in Quebec since 1977 and that this province keeps getting good results with regard to the length and the contents of negotiations.

Everybody is happy, including unions and management, because strikes do not last as long. Everybody is happy. We must not forget that, when there is a strike, there is a picket line, of course, but these people on the picket line have families, spouses, children. Families are affected by a strike, and the impact then extends to businesses, services, etc.

I will not enumerate all those affected by a strike, but the impact goes far beyond the striking workers. It is often said that they are spoiled children earning $12 an hour who want $13 and therefore go on strike for 6 months. It is much more than that. People who go on strike are seeking a better quality of life.

A strike is a balance of power. If provisions are not added to the Canada Labour Code prohibiting replacement workers, it is a sign that the balance of power is being ignored, that it is acceptable for one of the parties to be stronger than the other.

And then they wonder why there is violence on picket lines, why people are frustrated. When there is no balance of power, people are frustrated. It is only normal, people are like that. In a nutshell, the Liberal government's complete lack of will to ban replacement workers is the most important weakness in this reform. It is obvious that there is no will to do anything about the issue. I will come back to this later.

Another aspect not often mentioned is the minister's powers. The Sims report recommended taking away some of the minister's powers, but this bill adds to them instead. In addition to some fifteen possible interventions by the minister in the bargaining process, another one is added: the power to order a union to hold a vote on the employer's latest offers. Nobody else, just the union. This is interference in the administration of the central labour body affected by the conflict. In my opinion, this is really biased. It comes close to being-I will not use the word-but I will say that it is biased, to be very nice.

Where does it say in the Canada Labour Code that the minister can force a company to act on sincere offers from the union? The underlying theme is always that the union is dishonest. It may well happen that a union is dishonest. An employer could be as well, but there is still a marked imbalance here.

I am afraid I am running out of time, so I will concentrate on my next point, which is that the minister denied a request by the Public Service Alliance of Canada to be regulated by the Canada Labour Code and not by the Public Service Staff Relations Act. We could also add the RCMP, the only police force in this country-and there are a lot of people in this country, 27 million-which does not have the right to unionize. Talk about image! Their horses might have a better chance of joining a union than they would. This does not make sense. After all, this is 1996.

Earlier, I heard members say that in 1977, Quebec's legislation was rather obsolete. I just want to read to you a recommendation concerning Canada Post. As you know, negotiations are taking place at this time. Now this is what could happen without anti-scab provisions. "Recommendation No. 15, that if the collective bargaining process does not produce the necessary adjustments without interruption of service-I am talking about postal services-the government be prepared to take appropriate steps to protect the immediate public interest and ensure the long term financial viability of a strategically repositioned Canada Post Corporation".

Adding this to the Canada Labour Code means that Canada Post could hire scabs at any time, and we know what the consequences have been in the past. It is a mystery to me why they still fail to understand the risks involved in hiring scabs. But Recommendation No. 15 is clear: if you do not accept, we have the right to hire scabs, and we will. This is highly unusual.

One last point, because I know my time is running out. Right next door we have Bradson Mercantile which provides security services for the government in buildings scattered all over Hull and Ottawa. Its employees are now on strike. Scabs were hired to replace them. So what happened recently? It is just not done, but I feel I must tell you about it. Employees attended a meeting where they were told that a vote would be held to find out whether they were in favour of going back to work. And imagine, 30 scabs were there to vote as well. Seventeen people voted in favour of going back to work.

This means that some scabs voted against these people going back to work. That is what can happen under the Canada Labour Code when there is no anti-scab bill. Of course these scabs voted against the employees' going back to work, as their livelihoods depend on the lack of an agreement between the parties. They came to influence the vote because if the other people went back to work and the dispute was resolved, they would lose their jobs. So they took part in the vote. This is serious.

The government turns a blind eye to this kind of abuse, as far as the Canada Labour Code is concerned, to allow workers to establish what the hon. member for Mercier referred to earlier as "l'équilibre des forces". It should not be a privilege but a right. Fairness and balance should be what the Canada Labour Code is all about. But it is not, and there are many cases of abuse like the examples I just gave you and those my colleagues gave you this morning.

In concluding, I am disappointed because of certain shortcomings in the Canada Labour Code.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Madam Speaker, today I would like to discuss the proposed amendments to part I of the Canada Labour Code and how important they are to the workers they apply to. These amendments as outlined in Bill C-66 will have some enduring benefits to this important player, the employee, in the rapidly changing labour scenario.

The amendments are based on recommendations made by the task force on the review of the Canada Labour Code. In its report, "Seeking a Balance", the task force strove to find a balance between competing interests including those of labour and management.

The amendments we are discussing today serve to update the existing federal labour law and in no way radically alter the existing Canada Labour Code. Yet they will, I believe, serve the interests of working Canadians.

Part I of the Canada Labour Code applies to the approximately 700,000 workers and their employers in the federal private sector. These include the men and women who serve in our banks, keep our airlines safe and punctual, and physically move our volumes of grain exports on to the ships that come in for example to Halifax harbour. They are part of the group of workers who keep this country moving.

What are the concerns of this important group of workers? Apart from some issues specific to the particular industries they work for, their requirements as employees are no different from those of other industries and other employees. For instance, they want stability. They want to be able to exercise some of their democratic rights, such as the right to organize. They want to be able to have their voices heard in the workplace to ensure their viewpoints are heard and understood. These are factors central to the amendments.

One thing that will not change with these amendments is the continuing ability to engage in collective bargaining. It is an essential that has to remain. This right of workers and employers to organize and bargain collectively is central to any democratic society with a market based economy.

I am reminded of the book The Company Store which is well known in my area of the country. It talks about how in the 1920s the workers in the coal mines of Cape Breton were treated terribly by the coal mining companies, like Dominion Coal Company. It gives a very strong case for why we do need to have collective bargaining in our country and why workers' rights are so important to defend.

There may be those who feel at times that the unions today have become very strong, but if we look at the history we can see why we have to have the collective bargaining process. It is important that workers' rights be protected.

Collective bargaining is fundamental to the Canada Labour Code. For employees it ensures they get a fair and adequate reward for their labour and that they are able to participate as equals in determining policies that affect them in direct and significant ways.

Our existing collective bargaining system has served Canada well. Both employees and employers said that to the task force. It is our expectation that these amendments will allow it to continue to enhance co-operation between and among the respective parties.

Some of the key amendments that will be important to the employee include the following:

There is the establishment of a representational Canada industrial relations board. The chairperson and vice-chairpersons of this new board will be neutral and it will include equal representation of employees and employers. This will make the board more responsive to the community it is intended to serve. Formerly the Canada Labour Relations Board was non-representational. This new development will reflect more accurately the changing face of the Canadian workforce.

The board's remedial powers will be expanded to ensure good faith bargaining. The board will be given the power and the flexibility to deal quickly with routine or urgent matters.

Proposed amendments are also aimed at speeding up certification and decertification processes. They will protect employee rights where there is a change from provincial to federal jurisdiction.

Currently the code does not provide for continued recognition of bargaining agents and collective agreements in cases where a contract for services is transferred to a new employer as a result of contract re-tendering. This has resulted in the loss of remuneration and employment at the end of each contract period for workers employed by contractors in the air transport sector, which is important for instance at Halifax international airport in my riding of Halifax West. Many of the workers in the air transport sector are women and immigrants. Such successive contractors would now be required to pay employees equivalent remuneration. This is a very important amendment.

This proposal intends to deter competition based on who can pay the lowest wages. This will create a level playing field for contractors whose employees are unionized with those who are not, and it will help to reduce turnover rates, an important consideration for all of us in these challenging times. I know even here we are concerned about turnover rates.

With the growth of non-standard employment in Canada, particularly home based employment, attention has to be paid to ensuring that these workers are also a party to the benefits of collective bargaining. Most home based workers are women. It is estimated that two-thirds of home based workers are employed by an organization located elsewhere.

While the home based work arrangement has advantages for many people, others find themselves in a vulnerable situation unable to acquire the traditional employment benefits. For this reason we have included amendments proposing that the board have the discretion to grant an authorized representative of a labour

union a list of the names and addresses of employees who normally work in locations other than the employer's premises.

The union will therefore have access to off site employees on the condition that the privacy and security of off site workers are protected. The industrial relations board can indicate conditions and in a particular case for instance can say: "We are going to give you this kind of information so you can access the people using a way that is suitable in the circumstances so that the privacy and security of the people in their homes are protected".

As the minister said in his speech, one of his main goals was to bring an orderly process to industrial relations in Canada. Therefore some amendments clarify the rights and obligations of the parties during a legal work stoppage. The use of replacement workers during a legal strike has always been a very contentious issue. For as long as I can recall, labour and management have held opposite positions on this issue.

Not surprisingly, the consultation process did not succeed in reaching a consensus on replacement workers. This split appeared also in the Sims task force where a member tabled a minority report. In the end the minister and the government had to decide, and they did. They chose a moderate, fair and equitable formula based on the good faith of the parties.

There is no general edict forbidding the use of replacement workers during a legal strike. However their use for the purpose of undermining a union's representative capacity would be considered as an unfair labour practice. The union can refer the case to the Canada industrial relations board. If the board determines a violation has occurred, it can order the employer to stop using replacements for the duration of the dispute.

The amendments also confirm the right of employees in the bargaining unit who are on strike or locked out to resume employment following a work stoppage in preference to any persons hired to replace them. Another critical feature for employees is that they will be entitled to maintain insurance and benefits programs during work stoppages.

These then are some of the key amendments that will affect workers under part I of the labour code. The legislation also addresses management's interest and is indeed fair and balanced in its approach and aims. Its aim of enhanced co-operation should lead to improved productivity, better job security and increased worker participation in workplace decisions. This is good for Canadian workers and it is good for Canada.

[Gurbax Malhi, Liberal, Bramalea—Gore—Malton, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak on Bill C-66 which amends the Canada Labour Code. This is a fair, balanced and extremely credible piece of legislation and I am proud to support it.

Bill C-66 is the culmination of extensive consultations with interested parties across Canada. Public consultations began about two years ago with preliminary discussions with the labour movement and business groups. These discussions identified major areas of agreement and disagreement concerning possible amendments to part I of the Canada Labour Code. Following these preliminary discussions, a task force of exceptionally able and credible labour relations experts was established to examine part I of the code and to make recommendations to the minister.

The task force was led by Andrew Sims, QC, and its other members were Paula Knopf and Rodrigue Blouin. The task force held public consultations in Halifax, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton, Montreal and Winnipeg. More than 90 written submissions were received from close to 50 groups and individuals, including the Canadian Labour Congress, the Canadian Federation of Labour, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and the Federally Regulated Employers group.

In most of the cities it visited, the task force also met informally with labour lawyers and labour law administrators. The task force held full day meetings at the universities of Laval, Toronto and Calgary which provided academic experts in labour law and administration an opportunity to express their opinions.

The task force also benefited from the work of the labour-management consensus group made up of representatives from the Canadian Labour Congress, the Confederation of National Trade Unions, the Canadian Federation of Labour, the Federally Regulated Employers-Transportation and Communication, the Western Grain Elevator Association and the Canadian Bankers' Association. The work of this group was important in identifying issues and areas in which consensus was possible.

The task force produced its report, including extensive recommendations, early this year. A final round of consultations involved meetings the minister held in April with representatives of labour, management and other groups in Vancouver, Regina, St. John's, Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa. These meetings gave the minister a chance to hear in person reactions to the recommendations of the task force.

An important conclusion of the Sims task force was that the Canada Labour Code is generally accepted by the labour and management groups as a viable framework which has facilitated collective bargaining in the federally regulated private sector. The workplace to which the code applies has been subject to a number of significant changes in recent years, however.

Privatization of government services has meant the transfer of some jobs to the private sector regulated by the code. Deregulation policies such as open skies and the elimination of the Crow rate

have changed the conditions of the competition in a number of industries regulated by the code.

This had a direct impact on collective bargaining as unions and management have realized that a work stoppage can have a serious impact on market share and profitability. Changes in trade policies, the adoption of new technologies and changing market conditions have also had significant effects on federally regulated private sectors.

In the face of these changes, unions have generally been on the defensive, employers have pressed for industrial change and the very existence of collective bargaining has come under some scrutiny.

I reject the view that collective bargaining is no longer relevant. Canada has benefited greatly from the collective bargaining process. The freedom of workers and employers to organize and bargain collectively is a cornerstone of our democratic, market based society. It is the means by which labour rates are fairly established. It ensures stability, predictability and efficiency. In times of dramatic economic change, globalization and new trading blocs, an efficient, effective and a responsive collective bargaining system is essential.

I believe that we are beginning to see a new level of co-operation between management and labour. We are seeing the flattening of organizations and the emergence of new styles of negotiation. The members of the Sims task force recognized that if such co-operation is to grow a balance must be found between a number of competing objectives. A balance must be found between social and economic goals. Work is a form of personal expression and a source of social security. Yet many businesses continue to export jobs in pursuit of profits. A balance must also be found between instruments of labour policy. Protection of freedom of association, for example, must be balanced against property rights. A balance must be found between rights and responsibilities.

While our system of collective bargaining conveys certain rights to management and labour it is also based on the expectation that labour and management will meet their responsibility to bargain fairly and in good faith.

Finally, a balance must be found between collective bargaining and public interest.

Bill C-66 is a balanced and fair piece of legislation which takes these dramatic changes into account, which recognizes the need to balance competing objectives and which will ensure that the code continues to operate effectively into the next century.

I would like to use the rest of my time to focus on aspects of the legislation which would include efficient administration of part I of the code.

Bill C-66 would significantly improve administration of part I of the code by restructuring the Canada Labour Relations Board. The non-representational CLRB would be replaced with the representational Canada industrial relations board. The new board would be made up of a neutral chair and vice-chairs with equal number of board members representing labour and management groups.

This would increase the confidence of those appearing before the board that their case is fully understood and properly reviewed. Decisions made by the board, especially those involving the exercise of the board's discretion, would be more credible in the eyes of both labour and management.

The appointment of part time regional members who are representative of labour and management will significantly improve the cost effectiveness of the board, give the board access to the expertise of persons who are active in labour relations and improve links between the board and the labour relations community.

Measures to reorganize the board contained in Bill C-66 would also make it more flexible, allowing it to respond more quickly to both routine and emergency issues. Rather than a three member panel, for example, a single vice-chair would be able to resolve some cases. In some cases such as preliminary motions or requests for the extension of time limits this simply makes sense. Access to the board would be enhanced by a repeal of the provision that requires parties to obtain ministerial consent before filing an allegation of bad faith bargaining. This would be particularly significant in cases where an immediate board hearing is needed to break a deadlock in negotiations.

Bill C-66 would give grievance arbitrators a number of important new procedural powers. This is necessity because the arbitration process has become more and more complex. The amendments will make the arbitration process more flexible and efficient and are an important step in ensuring that grievance arbitration is reserved for the resolution of disputes that parties cannot resolve on their own.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

I am sorry, but your time has expired.

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

Call in the members.

The vote on the motion stands deferred until tomorrow after Government Orders.

The House proceeded to the consideration of amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-42, an act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to another act.

Judges Act

[Doug Peters, Liberal, for Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved:

That the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-42, an act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to another act, be now read the second time and concurred in.

[The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Gordon Kirkby, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak on the motion that this House give second reading to and concur in the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-42, an act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to another act.

As hon. members will recall, Bill C-42 received third reading in this Chamber on June 18, 1996. In the Senate the government moved and the Senate agreed to an amendment to one clause of the bill, clause 5, which was passed by this House. It was a provision of general application regarding international activities of federally appointed judges.

The original purpose of the clause was to clarify the terms on which judges could engage in activities abroad, such as technical assistance projects in developing countries. It would have changed the existing law by allowing judges who participated in such activities, with the authorization of Canada, to receive expenses directly from an international organization.

The original clause 5 would also have established a framework within which judges could, with the authorization of Canada, work for an international organization of states or an institution thereof. Such a judge could, with the approval of the governor in council and after consultation with the chairman of the Canadian Judicial Council, request a leave of absence without pay in order to be paid directly by the international organization.

During the consideration of Bill C-42 in the Senate certain concerns were expressed about the implications for judicial independence of certain aspects of clause 5. It became evident that to obtain passage of the bill without further delay, the government had to agree to amend clause 5 to restrict its application to one specific case, that of Madam Justice Louise Arbour.

As hon. members will recall, Madam Justice Arbour of the Ontario Court of Appeal had been appointed by unanimous resolution of the United Nations Security Council following the recommendation of the UN secretary-general to the position of chief prosecutor of the United Nations war crimes tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. For independence reasons the UN insists that the chief prosecutor not receive his or her salary and expenses from a member state but instead directly from the United Nations.

Clause 5, as passed by the House in June, reflected sound policy and practical considerations and fully respected the principle of judicial independence. By moving an amendment to clause 5 in the Senate, the government did not accept that the arguments of those who said that clause 5 as originally worded would have threatened judicial independence.

The government moved its amendment for the sole and simple reason that it saw no other way to proceed quickly with the bill. The Senate's amendment to clause 5 would specifically authorize Madam Justice Arbour alone to take a leave of absence for the purpose of serving as the chief prosecutor of the UN war crimes tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

It would also permit her to elect to leave without pay and to receive salary and expenses directly from the UN in connection with her service as the chief prosecutor. In other words, by this amendment, clause 5 would cease to be a general amendment to cover the use of Canadian judges for international activities.

I would add that while the Canadian Judicial Council would have preferred to see the passage of clause 5 as originally approved by the House, the council has no objection to the amended version of this clause.

Bill C-42 would permit Madam Justice Arbour to respond to the request of the United Nations secretary-general and the security council to take on an international assignment of enormous importance to the world at large. They are counting on Canada to undertake the necessary measures to allow her to serve in accordance with reasonable and understandable needs of the UN.

Certainly all Canadians can be proud that one of our citizens, one of our judges, is representing this country and indeed the world at large in such an important forum. Therefore, I urge hon. members to approve the Senate's amendment to clause 5 of Bill C-42 as quickly as possible.

All other aspects of Bill C-42 as passed by the House in June remain unchanged. The bill would transfer from cabinet to chief justices the authority to approve judicial leaves of absence of up to six months as recommended by the last two triennial commissions on judges' salaries and benefits and endorsed by the Canadian Judicial Council.

The bill recognizes the importance of the Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada by including the chief justice of that court on the membership of the Canadian Judicial Council and authorizes the payment of a modest accountable representational allowance of up to $5,000 per year to the head of that court.

The chief justices of the courts of appeal of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories would also be granted similar representational allowances.

Bill C-42 would also permit the appointments of up to three additional judges Canada-wide to the provincial courts of appeal which have been experiencing increasing workloads and backlogs over the past number of years.

It is the minister's stated opinion to recommend that two of these new appointments be made to the British Columbia Court of Appeal which needs more judges to deal with its workload and one to the Ontario Court of Appeal to replace Madam Justice Arbour.

Finally, the bill would correct some of the technical errors and clarify some ambiguous language that exists in the Judges Act. Therefore, I call on all hon. members to support these changes to the Judges Act.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on this bill as official opposition justice critic, given that Bill C-42 has already been debated in this House and sent subsequently to the Senate. It has been returned to this House as the result of certain changes the Senate wanted to see in the bill.

I think that, to properly understand the full implications of the changes proposed by the Senate, we must at least look to see whether the bill initially met certain requirements and whether it followed due legislative process: that is, first, second and third reading.

Did the government, the official opposition and the third party seriously vet this bill to see if it required changing? Was Bill C-42 studied in committee? Was each clause studied by the parliamentary committee of members elected to this House? Was it passed at report stage?

The answer to all these questions is yes. Bill C-42 passed through all these stages. Those who received a very clear mandate from the people and who are in the House of Commons analyzed Bill C-42 and passed it. Yes, under the present system, this bill must go to the other House, the Senate. Why? Because that is the way it is, because that is the way the system works.

However, we must not take away the essence of the bill when it comes back to us. I think that Bill C-42 as passed by the House of Commons achieved the objectives that were set. It revolves around four main points, on the basis of which the members of this House decided this was indeed a good bill, one that should be passed.

I tried to understand the Senate's changes and I think that, for the people watching us, following the debates to some extent, to have some understanding of the Senate's changes, they must at least be familiar with the four main ideas behind Bill C-42.

We in the Bloc Quebecois supported the bill for many reasons. There was, among other things, a series of provisions which created new positions for judges. As we know, the present law allows the Canadian provinces and Quebec to create seven additional positions. With the change proposed in Bill C-42, which was passed by the House, legislative assemblies in each province can now decide, if necessary, to increase from seven to ten the number of additional judges.

Given what the provinces are experiencing, given what Quebec, Ontario and other provinces are experiencing, given the court delays, given the workload of judges, this change was normal. This has to be left alone. It was passed by this House.

There was also a series of clerical and wording changes. It was normal to update this law, to make it fairer. Judges were granted leaves of absence in order to ensure their independence. This is a very important criterion if we are to properly assess the changes proposed by the Senate, which must be approved by the House of Commons.

Bill C-42 included a new paragraph requiring the approval of the Governor in Council only for leaves of absence of more than six months. At the present time, his approval is required for leaves of absence of a month or more. If a judge wanted a leave of absence of one month, he had to submit a request to the Governor in Council.

This change was to keep away the executive branch, to keep judges' decisions free from any political intervention. It was a deliberate choice, a very important change for the Canadian legal system, for the Quebec legal system. We welcomed this change and we supported it in this House.

The fourth amendment provided for in Bill C-42, which was quite new, and met a need in today's world, but which has been directly impacted by what came back to us this morning from the Senate, was the possibility for a judge, with the government's authorization, to take part in legal activities at the international level. Until now, judges had to devote themselves exclusively to their judicial duties. There exists, furthermore, a tradition requiring

judges to avoid involvement in situations that could oblige them to take a stand in public. Bill C-42 therefore represents a departure from our legal tradition in that it would allow judges to take part in international activities. But this was a good thing, since Bill C-42, which was duly passed in the House of Commons, set out very clearly how this was to be allowed.

This bill also rightly provided that a judge could not be paid twice. In other words, if a judge took on international duties, during that time he could not be on paid leave nor receive any kind of remuneration from the country where he had been appointed a judge.

Clearly, as a whole, the amendments in Bill C-42 met a national need, an immediate need, a need of those involved, as well as an international need given the major conflicts and international trials we are faced with nowadays on a regular basis. In a sense, the bill was a response to the needs of the international community.

This bill was carefully reviewed by a team of experienced researchers as part of a thorough analysis, and it was decided that the bill should be passed without amendments, that certain comments should be made in committee, but the elected representatives decided very democratically to pass Bill C-42 this way.

As I said at the beginning of my analysis, in Canada, we have another House, a non-elected House, some of whose members I could describe as slightly out of touch with reality, it is a fact, people who occasionally nod off, lulled by the sounds of party politics. One morning, in a fleeting moment of wakefulness, a senator said: "Fear not, we shall not let this bill pass without amendments. We will amend it for the sake of justifying the money we make here at the Senate. At least part of the $43 million spent yearly on the Senate must be justified".

The senators decided to take a specific example. They said: "Let us amend Bill C-42 in a specific fashion, taking one judge in particular. This way, every time judges want to get involved on the international scene, they will have to start all over, going first before the House of Commons, then before the Senate. This will give us a little work to do. It will give us a chance to poke our noses into these matters, and make amendments. It will be great fun". So, to a large extent, the Senate basically considers the general idea behind this bill as a specific case, and decided to amend it to have it apply only to the case of Madam Justice Arbour from the Court of Appeal of Ontario.

Some of our listeners, including the Liberals across the way, may think that the Bloc is trying to protect some Quebecer. The fact is we are do advocate the principle of independence. But in this case, where the Liberals condone, to some extent, the attitude of the Senate, the person involved is a judge from the Ontario court of appeal.

This amendment has been sent to us after the House of Commons went through a clear and comprehensive process: first, second and third readings, not to mention a clause by clause review in committee, and report stage. Now we have to start all over again; we have to review the nice amendments made by the Senate. But what prompted the Senate, if not partisan considerations, to make amendments such as these?

I decided to have some fun. I rarely do this, but I read the great philosophical debates of the other place. Once in a while, we should read what senators have to say on a particular issue.

I read the Debates of the Senate for Monday, October 28, for November 7, and for October 22, 1996, to see what senators had to say on Bill C-42. I must say I was very surprised by the depth of the senators' review, by the seriousness with which they reviewed the legislation, and particularly by the sources that prompted them to propose amendments.

In the case of one senator, whom I will not name, out of respect for her, one such source is the infamous gossip magazine Frank . The senator said: Listen, in Ms. Arbour's case it does not make sense. We have to make a specific amendment''. The October 23 issue of the gossip magazine <em>Frank</em> carried an article on Madam Justice Arbour's friends in high places. It stated:Ms. Arbour has many friends and allies to boost her to the top- It was Goldstone who finessed Arbour's appointment through the United Nations. In Canada, the deal was stick-handled through judicial circles by her common-law husband, the sebaceous deputy attorney-general of Ontario, Larry Taman''.

The senator relied on this gossip magazine, this rag and the article published in it to say that a specific amendment had to be made to Bill C-42 to deal with the appointment of Madam Justice Arbour. Can that be the only evaluation criterion by which one can determine if a bill coming from the House of Commons, which is composed of democratically elected members, must, yes or no, be amended? Every four or five years, we go before the people to get elected. I find it hard to believe that a senator with such great intellectual capacity, one who likes to quote Frank , would be prepared to stand for re-election now and then.

The same senator went on to say, in her analysis: "I am informed that Justice Arbour's contracted salary with the United Nations is US$250,000 tax free with, in addition, many more hundreds of thousands in expenses. With remuneration like that, Canadian judicial benches will soon be empty if Canadian judges are permitted to roam internationally in procurement of such employment and remuneration".

Still, why should it matter to senators that such a person should earn US$250,000.? If the senator is afraid that judicial benches will soon be empty, since there would surely be judges who would decide to work internationally, she has nothing to worry about.

I believe the Minister of Justice and the Government of Canada would be only too happy to appoint their good friends to the bench. Good? We know very well that, at the federal level, these are political appointments. But, up until now, even though these appointees have been friends of the government, I have no complaints, at least as far as Quebec is concerned. Having practised law before becoming a member of Parliament, I saw that the judges were quite competent, after all.

When the Conservatives are in power, all the judges are Tories, and when the Liberals are in power, all the judges are Liberals, but that is part of the game, as we say in my part of the country.

But let us be clear. Let us reassure the senators so that they are not worried or afraid. We will always find judges, we will always find very competent and well trained persons for the bench. The walls of the temple of Canadian justice shall not crumble because one, two or three judges decide to serve on an international tribunal and put their knowledge at the service of the world community. I thought that only one senator thought this way, but I read on and, unfortunately, there is more than one.

There is another senator who is a former member of this House. He was appointed to the Senate by the previous government. He says that there must be an amendment. He approved of the proposed amendment and said: "Listen, the independence of the judiciary is one of the principles that all Canadian parliamentarians must strive to protect and advocate". This is profound and it is true. He thought long and hard before coming to that conclusion.

"The independence of the judiciary is one of the last defences for the respect of democratic values in this country". When a non-elected senator speaks of democratic values in defence of an amendment proposed by the Senate itself, I think this goes against the very principle of independence he claims to be promoting.

In Canada, we have written rules, unwritten rules, customs, and what not. The Minister of Justice or his parliamentary secretary must certainly know that there is an unwritten rule that says that Parliament should never adopt a bill for one specific judge. Never. To do otherwise is to go against the independence of the executive branch and of the courts.

I know that this is not meant to be a specific legislation, that Bill C-42 is not about Madam Justice Louise Arbour, but by bringing a specific amendment, by changing the spirit of a provision to make it specific to a particular case in order to solve a problem, I think the Senate is making this a specific legislation.

I think it is dangerous and deplorable that the government has decided to give up its powers because of the wishes of the other place. The government had taken a stand in Bill C-42. It had clearly stated its position. However, for considerations that nobody else knows, it has decided to yield to the Senate to amend the legislation and, indirectly, to undermine a recognized principle.

During the debate on Bill C-42, many things were said about impartiality, about the appointment of judges and about the whole legal system within which this legislation must be viewed. I will not repeat them.

However, if the government is using the Senate to amend a piece of legislation, to bring amendments to a bill or to parts of a bill because of things it had not noticed, it is cause for concern. I do not think this is the case. I know the Minister of Justice. We can agree or disagree with his position in certain matters, including his decision to refer to the Supreme Court a matter of a very political nature affecting Quebec, we can disagree with some of his decisions, but I think the justice minister is a man who knows his bills inside out.

He is a man who, before making a decision, has the bill analyzed by his advisers, by his team of researchers, by experienced lawyers. And only then does he decide to table a bill. It has been discussed, he changed his position. The bill was passed after it is discussed, after the government and the opposition parties debated it.

I think that it is unthinkable that, in 1996, the Senate can force the government to backtrack on an issue as important as that of the independence of the courts.

I say to the government and its representatives that they are on the wrong track, they should not do this. Instead, they should make the Senate toe the line on this sort of issue. In this case, we are not in agreement with the Liberal government, the Canadian government, on this amendment. In fact, if I had not afraid that it would be interpreted as opposition to Bill C-42, I would have asked the House not to approve the bill at second and third reading. But as for the substance, as I said earlier, we are in agreement with Bill C-42.

As the opposition party, we are against the amendment made by the Senate through the government. We will therefore be voting against this amendment.

I urge the government to do its homework over again. I urge the government to consult its lawyers, researchers and special advisers a second time. I urge the government to do its homework over again, to take another look at the bill, so that it knows exactly what the situation is on this extremely important issue, so that we have legislation that is clear and that does not encourage judges to leave Canada. That is not what the Bloc Quebecois wants. We want

legislation that is clear. We want judges to know the rules ahead of time, and if a judge has expertise in a certain field and would like to be useful at the international level by being seconded to a court outside his jurisdiction, I think we should encourage that with legislation that is clear.

There should be a fair and equitable process for all individuals who would like to take advantage of this international experience. The amendment proposed by the Senate would make this impossible. How each case is evaluated would depend on the amount of pressure on the government opposite. I think this is disastrous in a society that calls itself democratic and emphasizes the independence of the executive and the judiciary.

In concluding, I would urge the Minister of Justice to review his calculations, if he has done any, to review everything with his legal advisers to make the necessary adjustments and in the end decide that the amendment proposed by the Senate is bad for the Canadian judiciary system and therefore for the Quebec judiciary system.