Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a few comments to the debate on Bill C-41 and the motions in Group No. 2.
Bill C-41 in itself has some strong points and some weak areas. Viewing the overall bill we certainly feel there are some amendments necessary. In Group No. 2 there are eight motions specifically addressing the ability to pay or the grid payment aspect of a divorce. Of the eight motions there are two that we have some difficulty with, Motions Nos. 6 and 9.
Part of that reason is that if we go with Motions Nos. 6 and 9 there does not seem to be sort of a starting base, an expectation that people can have as to what may happen if they choose to divorce.
With the grid aspect at least they know before they go into the courtroom that there is a certain area that they are going to have to look at; they are going to have to pay this or they are going to have to pay that depending on what happens on their day in court.
What we argue is they have that grid, that guideline and then we look at their ability to pay and of course the needs of the child or children. At that point if they do not meet basic essentials of the grid, then they go into mediation or these kinds of things that would be applicable to the individual situation of the family involved.
The point is we must have somewhere to start. We must give the citizens some direction as to what it would mean or could mean if they went into the divorce court. The first priority of course is the needs of the child based on the ability to pay.
It has been mentioned in previous debate that within a family structure that is not divorcing we do not expect the same type of financial commitment. I would tend to suggest that we do in a different sort of way. I am sure that when people decide to have a family they obviously look at their present family income situation and whether they can support the family in the manner in which they choose, i.e. their lifestyle. The courts can do the same kind of thing when that partnership breaks up, that they would look at that family according to their lifestyle and assess the needs of the children according to the ability to pay. There must be a certain level that one who has to raise those children can expect from a financial point of view.
That is what we are talking about with having the guidelines for the judge and for the people involved in the divorce to at least start somewhere and then from there bring it into their own individual circumstances.
We tend to think when we say ability to pay of the lower income person and whether they can actually meet that basic standard. Of course, if they cannot we get into all these different penalties we are going to impose on somebody who cannot pay. Obviously we have to look at the ability to pay.
Also there is the other end of this scale where the money is not necessarily the problem from the point of view of having to support children. Then we get into value systems and lifestyles, which is another debate.
A previous speaker from the Bloc made reference to negotiating benefits different from the rules. I am assuming the rules would be the payment grid. I suggest this could be very precedent setting. When there are no parameters from which to work in we open a Pandora's box. If we had some parameters to work within and then allow the judges to assess the individual situation and go outside those parameters if necessary through a mediation of ability to pay and the needs of the child, I could see nothing wrong with that.
However, to start there puts a great onus on the judge with respect to the value system. There are no applicable guidelines. It would open up ongoing cases. We would probably get into the situation of judge shopping. If a person did not get a good deal with one judge, they might want to try again. This may not necessarily happen if the person is satisfied with the end result, but it could happen.
I am suggesting we should have the payment grid available but it should be flexible based on the ability to pay, the needs of the child and the individual situation.
In addressing these motions, the lack of flexibility in two of the motions with respect to the grid payment is our main concern. We would like to see that flexibility. The other six motions we have no particular difficulty with because we proposed them.
That is all I have to add at this point on Group No. 2.