Debates of Feb. 29th, 1996

Goods And Services Tax

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my first question is for the finance minister. If he wants us to hold his hand on balancing the budget or learning how to balance a budget, he can join us this Saturday morning. My colleague from Capila-

no-Howe Sound is giving a seminar on just that subject. He should remember to bring a new pen because we only do our budgets in black ink. Please come.

In today's Sun there is an article that states: ``Finance Minister Paul Martin is working on a bribe to persuade the four Atlantic provinces to harmonize''-

[The Speaker]

I would ask the hon. member to please just use the title of the minister rather than his name.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the quote states: "The finance minister is working on a bribe to persuade the four Atlantic provinces to harmonize their sales taxes with the GST". If harmonization is so great, then obviously he ought to be able to sell it on its own merits.

Is the finance minister seriously going to go ahead with a proposal that is so bad he cannot sell it on its own merits and he actually has to bribe the provinces to go along?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the arguments in favour of harmonization are overwhelming. Consumer associations across the country argue in favour of harmonization. Small and medium size business argue in favour of harmonization. The Canadian Tax Foundation argue in favour of harmonization.

In this day when what we are trying to do is to find new vehicles for the delivery of government services, what we want to do is rationalize them. Surely to heaven the ability of the federal and provincial governments to co-operate is not something that should be denigrated but something members opposite should be applauding. The only thing I would say on that basis is that a number of provinces understand the benefits of harmonization. I do not think that it speaks well of the Reform Party to say that any provincial government would allow itself to be bribed. It is an insult to the people of their provinces.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member for York South-Weston when referring to the Prime Minister recently said: "He made a promise; we all made promises. We went door to door to scrap the GST and if we do not keep that promise it will be very difficult for Liberal MPs to go into an election knocking on the same doors asking support once again from people they lied to in the last election campaign".

Will the minister fulfil his and his colleagues' promises not to disguise, not to fudge, not to tinker with, but to eliminate the GST? That was his promise.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, let me simply quote from page 22 of the red book:

A Liberal government will replace the GST with a system that generates equivalent revenues, is fairer to consumers and to small business, minimizes disruption to small business, and promotes federal-provincial fiscal co-operation and harmonization.

That is exactly what we intend to do.

Human Rights

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am going to give the Deputy Prime Minister a chance to quote from a page of the red book. My question is for the Prime Minister, who recently announced that he did not intend to keep his word and to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act to include sexual orientation as the eleventh grounds for non-discrimination.

Will the Prime Minister again commit to honouring his word and will he proceed with the necessary amendments in keeping with his campaign promises?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the House has already voted on a bill of this nature concerning an amendment to the Criminal Code. That part of our commitment we have made good on. Now what remains is the legislation to which the hon. member refers. It is part of our promises and we hope to find the time to adopt it some day.

We have already kept one of our promises and now there is just the second one, but we have two and a half years to go.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, is the Prime Minister not ashamed, as the leading citizen of this country, to go back on a promise and thus to perpetuate discrimination against the gays and lesbians of this country? This is disgraceful, and we have the right to expect the Prime Minister to keep his word.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question here. He has only to read the red book and to tell us when an election will be held, and on that date it will be known whether or not we have adopted the bill.

National Unity

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask about another promise which had a shorter shelf life than the one just addressed. That is the promise of a national referendum which seems to have gone out the window already.

The government said in its throne speech: "Canadians, no matter where they live, will have their say in the future of the country".

I ask the Prime Minister: What precisely did he have in mind when the government made that commitment?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there are many ways for Canadians to express their views.

There will be a federal-provincial meeting of the first ministers. The people will be represented at that meeting by the Prime Minister of Canada and the premiers. There are also organizations which are expressing their views at this time by sending briefs to the government. They are meeting with their members of Parliament. We are receiving briefs from many people on that subject.

At this moment we have put forward a plan of amelioration of the federation. We want to discuss that with the first ministers. That is exactly what we have in mind for the time being.

I hope the Reform Party will approve the plan we have of offering some clarification, some devolution of powers, some improvement in the relations between the federal and provincial governments. I do not see why that is not good enough for the hon. member for the time being.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, apparently when the Prime Minister meant that Canadians would be able to express their views, he meant only the 11 first ministers of the country. Nothing has changed.

Yesterday when the hon. member for Beaver River was asking about this, the Deputy Prime Minister responded: "We believe that Canadians do not want more constitutional wrangling". If that is the case, I would like to ask the Prime Minister why did the government propose in the throne speech to constitutionalize the distinct society notion, to change the amending formula of the Constitution? Why is it proposing to reopen the wounds of Meech Lake, Charlottetown and the patriation of 1982?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have always said that we hope this will be constitutionalized. We said that when we had votes in the House of Commons on that. We have always said that is what we wanted to do.

In order to have the reality of Canadian life that Quebec is a distinct society in the Constitution we need seven provinces to approve it. I hope that the hon. member would support that. For changing the amending formula, I have always been in favour of a veto for the regions and this was expressed in a bill in the House of Commons and you voted against it. It was a formula that was accepted by all the provinces at the time of the Victoria discussion. There is nothing new. It is something that was acceptable even to the Socred government of Alberta which you are the grandson of. There are many ways to consult with the public. There is one that will come soon. That will be the day a lot of these guys will disappear, when we have a general election.

Softwood Lumber Industry

[Rose-Marie Ur, Liberal, Lambton—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.

Recently Canada and the United States signed a softwood lumber deal that will secure Canada's access to U.S. markets for five years. Why did Canada enter into this agreement with the United States rather than take the softwood dispute to the NAFTA panel, a panel process that Canada has won on all previous occasions?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the problem was that between the last dispute and this one, the law changed in the United States.

According to the rules of NAFTA and NAFTA panels, the NAFTA panel only has to determine whether or not a country in the agreement follows its own laws. Because of the change in the law, it created a great state of uncertainty about our ability to succeed in a further countervail measure if we should challenge it through a NAFTA panel.

We dealt with the provinces and with the industry in each of the provinces across the country and were able to come up with a good solution. It is different for the different provinces but is one they all subscribe to. It is one we were able to bring together under an overall Canada umbrella to work as a team with the provinces and with industry to come up with a solution that gives them secure access to the United States market for the next five years. This is something that has never been achieved before without any countervail measure.

We have secured a better access for very substantial volumes of our lumber to the United States market very similar to what we have had over the last two or three years.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Solicitor General.

Mr. Pierre Roy was fired by CSIS for informing his superiors that a mole in the service of the former Soviet Union had been working there for 20 years. The review committee said Mr. Roy had a case and asked for the investigation to be reopened. The mole, however, is still working for CSIS.

Would the Solicitor General agree it is astonishing, to say the least, that Mr. Roy was fired and the mole was protected, despite these troubling allegations?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I have been assured by the director of CSIS that there is no mole within the service as alleged by my hon. friend. This matter has been looked into thoroughly by the Security and Intelligence Review Committee. Its recommendations have been taken into account.

With respect to his reference to a former CSIS contract employee, this involves the internal management of the service. I cannot go into his relationship for privacy reasons.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Solicitor General received those assurances from the same people who told us there was no Heritage Front case, no Grant Bristow case, there had been no infiltration of the Reform Party and no file on Preston Manning.

Since these questions cannot be resolved by magic, and considering the Heritage Front, the file that was opened on Preston Manning and these new allegations about the existence of a mole within the service, a mole who is still there today, will the minister finally agree to order a full-scale public inquiry on the Canadian Security Intelligence Service?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

They had a mole of their own, Claude Morin.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, people suggested I mention Claude Morin, but I am a little hesitant to do so.

I want it to be quite clear that I was advised by the director of CSIS that there is no mole in the service. The service remains vigilant in this respect, and I repeat that the SIRC has investigated the matter and is unable to confirm the allegations of my hon. friend.

The Budget

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, although the finance minister said yesterday that he will not reveal details of his budget, he will recall that in January the Juneau report called for a special tax to support the CBC. Surely he can put this objectionable idea to rest. Will he commit today to no new taxes to support the CBC, Telefilm or the NFB?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the hon. member will have to wait for the budget to find out budget measures.

I am in the process and will continue to have lengthy, important discussions with the minister responsible. In the end we are talking about the preservation of a major Canadian institution. We are also talking about the ways in which a country exercises its cultural sovereignty. That is very important to this side of the House.

[Jim Abbott, Reform, Kootenay East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, then let me ask the heritage minister about this.

Canadians really are sick and tired of the never ending tax and spend mentality to which this minister and most the Liberals in the House adhere. Surely she has realized by now that Canadians are not prepared to put up with this special tax.

Has the minister recommended to the finance minister that she not continue to pick the taxpayers' pockets at the expense of the security of Canadians? Because the money all comes out of one pot.

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to the hon. member that when it comes to the security of Canadians it is not only of concern to this party in terms of physical security. We also want to secure our long term future. Part of securing that long term future means ensuring that we have strong public broadcasting available in every part of the country to help build the links we need to bind us into the 21st century.