Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with an important matter and we have heard all sorts of things for about an hour. I am a little surprised by what we heard. I think we must go back to the definition of sedition, because it is what the Reform Party is talking about in its motion.
As you can see, Reform members have somewhat altered the meaning of sedition. We must go back to section 59, which provides that "every one shall be presumed to have a seditious intention who teaches or advocates, or publishes or circulates any writing that advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of force as a means of accomplishing a governmental change within Canada".
Well, the communiqué makes no mention of this. It is very clear. I thought I would be arguing with Reform members on the basis that the communiqué does not refer to this or contravene section 62, which relates to any member of the military who is guilty of disloyalty, insubordination, mutiny or refusal, or section 59, which concerns anyone who publishes or circulates any writing that advocates the use of force as a means of accomplishing a governmental change.
I thought our debate would revolve around this and I was somewhat surprised at first, because this matter was raised by a Montreal lawyer, Mr. Tyler, in the Quebec courts, and in an Ontario court, before it was dismissed. One judge even called the communiqué a job offer. In other words, this is as far as he could go in
ridiculing the claims of this lawyer, a supporter of the partition of Quebec, we must remember.
The ministers of Defence and of Justice have told us, either in the House or in press releases, that they would be consulting their legal advisers in order to see whether there are grounds for laying charges. According to Diane Francis of the Financial Post , one of the Reform's gurus, the legal advisors of both ministers, Defence and Justice, have indicated that there was nothing to be done.
There was therefore no basis for accusations of sedition. What is surprising this afternoon is that there are admissions that there is no sedition, but they want another definition of sedition: crimes of opinion. The leader of the Reform Party, a person of some consequence, is speaking now of crimes of opinion, saying that in Canada there could be criminals of opinion. That is new, totally new. CSIS may have been investigating the Reform Party, but I have a feeling that next year it will be Amnesty International.
It is not very democratic to talk in terms of a crime of opinion. This is a new definition of what sedition is. In a way, it does not surprise me that a few Reform members would think of leaving that party, finding it to be too far to the right and seeing that, thank God, the majority of Canadians, no matter whether Quebec remains a part of the federation or not, would never follow that party in its undemocratic attitudes.
What is going a bit far, as was pointed out by the Leader of the Opposition, is speaking of sedition and ending up giving out a fax number. This is like storming the Bastille. One thing is clear: there will surely not be any exercise in camouflaged terrorism led by the defence minister to storm the Bloc headquarters. We indicate where we stand.
It is completely ridiculous to speak of sedition. Mr. Tyler has been told so. There have been three previous cases of sedition.
The first case, I think, was that of Louis Riel. It goes back a long way, and I find it very disturbing that one could refer to Louis Riel, because it was recognized later on that it was a mistake. Even though this Parliament refused to apologize, some even consider him a Father of Confederation. But he had been found guilty, which is not the case with the hon. member for Charlesbourg, far from it. A few years later, it was realized that Louis Riel was not guilty.
The second case is the case of Fred Rose, in 1946. This was when the Cold War was at its worst. It may be more accurate to talk of an open conflict, since McCarthyism was about to take hold of the United States. He was convicted, and there was a certain foundation in fact for his conviction. But today, his guilt is being questioned.
It is very dangerous to exploit the concept of guilt in matters of opinion the way the Reform Party is trying to do.
I will deal later on with the Liberals or at least with the Liberal member who raised that same point. I am not talking about the mover of the motion, but about the member who spoke after him. The name of his riding escapes me. I am happy to see my colleague across the way is relieved.
The third case is that of Mr. McGreevy, in the 1880s. That member was actually guilty, and he resigned before the committee hearings took place. That case and that of the hon. member for Charlesbourg have absolutely nothing in common. I repeat, absolutely nothing.
A Reform member, the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands made a statement the day after the press release or a few days later. That was the first reaction of the Reform Party to the press release. Here is what he said:
"I do not think this can be considered inciting mutiny. We have to accept that in the Canadian forces right now are some people who are in favour of separation".
What have we here? A member of the Reform Party who seems to understand something about the situation.