Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we are living extremely serious times. I believe this week is probably the most important so far in Canadian parliamentary history. Not so much because of what a Bloc member said in a communiqué, or what was said about the Canadian armed forces outside the Commons, but because of the comments and speeches made here in this House.
We should not kid ourselves, what is at stake in the motion moved by the Reform Party, and amended by the government, is freedom of speech, the right for a duly elected member to speak, in short, democracy.
As far as I know, this is the first time a parliamentary committee is going to review a statement made by a member outside the House. I know that, in the past, parliamentary committees were called to study certain members' behaviour, or certain statements made by members in this House, within this chamber. But what we are dealing with here is a communiqué issued by the member for Charlesbourg, outside the House. And do not tell me that the communiqué was on the Leader of the Opposition's letterhead; this is common practice; the government does it all the time; it announces all kinds of programs on its letterhead, using taxpayers' money. It plays politics with taxpayers' money. It is part and parcel of a member's job to make his views known.
In this case, because we are dealing with a Quebecer who was explaining a few things in connection with the debate on Quebec sovereignty, it is a different matter, and members find it appalling.
I think Parliament has crossed a very dangerous line, infringing some acknowledged rights. Through the Reform and government speeches, Parliament is politicizing the Criminal Code, to serve some partisan and undemocratic purposes.
Maybe some members feel the description of the word "sedition" as found in sections 59 and 62 of the Criminal Code is not precise and clear enough, that the Code does not cover all elements, but I doubt it, I really think that the Criminal Code answers all questions that people might have in relation to actions from outsiders wanting to incite a member of the armed forces to rebel against authorities.
I think the Criminal Code is clear, but if the Reform members or the Liberals do not agree, it is not with a motion like this one that the government or the Reform Party should say it; they should introduce a private member's bill or a government order to add to the definitions of the Code and cover some elements not now included in the Criminal Code.
They should not be impugning motives or making a case against someone because of his political opinions, as the Liberals and the Reform members are doing to a duly elected member.
I had been given the following warning: "In politics, you will hear and see all sorts of things". But I never would have thought that they would stoop so low as to interpret the Criminal Code for purely partisan and political purposes. The Criminal Code is an extremely important piece of legislation in this country, and I think they are now using it for political purposes.
Why? Why has this communiqué, published on October 26, 1995, been raised as a question of privilege in this House, in March 1996? I will not surprise anyone by saying there will be some byelections soon and that the Reform Party, unable to rely on its performance in the House or elsewher, reasoned that, to score points, it would have to play politics at the expense of Quebecers, that it would work for the byelection in Ontario, that in Quebec their chances are nil, but in Ontario and Newfoundland, there will be byelections and the tactic would work. So they decided to play politics at the expense of Quebecers.
Reform is playing politics at the expense of the hon. member for Charlesbourg, whom they picked out randomly, since all Bloc members made similar statements, released similar communiqués. They used the hon. member for Charlesbourg to put Bloc members and the whole sovereignist movement on trial. That is quite serious.
I know that Reform members realized they were missing the boat, because of their slightly different approach to the question of privilege they had raised at the very beginning and because of their subsequent comments. They are no longer making accusations. They have stopped making unwarranted accusations.
On March 12, 1996, the Reform member for Nanaimo-Cowichan said this, and I quote: "-my comments call attention to the fact that in my time of 35 plus years in the military-so this is someone who knows the rules-the most serious offences were sedition or mutiny from within the ranks of the military. For it to come from an outside authority such as a parliamentarian makes it an even more serious offence".
Although they are now trying to wriggle out of this, to say that was not what they meant, it is clear that they are accusing Bloc members, a specific Bloc member, the whole sovereignist movement, of sedition. This is extremely serious.
Why are they accusing him, accusing us sovereignists, of this?
I will now quote the relevant passage of the communiqué, and you can draw your own conclusions. This communiqué is similar to those released by all members' offices, an unexceptional, even harmless communiqué drafted for information purposes, because people wanted to know what would occur in this or that area-in this case, the Canadian Forces.
"The day after a yes win", he says-
Not today, not right now, no matter what happens-
"The day after a yes win", he says, "Quebec should immediately create a Department of Defence, the embryo of a major state, and offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces the chance to integrate into the Quebec Forces while keeping their rank, seniority and retirement funds as a means to ensure a better transition".
Is this akin to fomenting sedition among soldiers, to urging them to revolt against authority? No. Finally, since we are talking about loyalty, is this what is bothering Reform and Liberal members today? The communiqué ends in this way:
-All of this expertise will not disappear with Quebec's accession to sovereignty and, personally, I think that soldiers of Quebec origin will respect the people's decision and will transfer their loyalty to the new country whose security they will ensure.
Does this amount to sedition? Is this urging members of the military to revolt? No. Sovereignists, Quebec men and women are simply telling soldiers: "The day after a yes vote, we will welcome you with open arms. If you want to come and work for the country of Quebec, if you want to ensure the security of Quebecers, we are ready to welcome you, to enlist you in a sovereign Quebec".
Those soldiers wishing to remain in Canada have the choice of staying in the Canadian Forces. We are not exerting undue pressure on them. What is the logic behind this? Why is it that, all of a sudden, it sounds like this communiqué says such terrible things when in fact, as everyone knows already, this is what we have been discussing in Quebec for years now?
Books, programs, all sorts of things have been written in Quebec about sovereignty, about our vision, about what we planned to accomplish in a sovereign Quebec, including about Canada's commitments to foreign countries. We were saying before the referendum campaign, we said during the referendum campaign and we continue to say and explain today-government intimidation has no hold on us-what we, Quebecers, intend to do for the military as for all other citizens.
During the referendum campaign and even before, Bloc members handed out various information packages to almost every household in their ridings. They sent out the Parti Quebecois agenda, as well as the Bloc Quebecois agenda outlined in our working paper on ideas for winning, released in April 1995. As for the PQ agenda, it dates back to 1993. It was stated in very clear terms that Quebec would have an army. Quebec, as a responsible country, would honour commitments made to international organizations such as NATO. None of this is new but, all of a sudden, the Reformers woke up and raised the issue because, apparently, it pays to play politics at the expense of Quebecers.
Reformers are telling themselves: "We have a Prime Minister who has scored political points at the expense of Quebecers all his life, and he was elected in 1993. Why not do the same? We will try to score political points at the expense of Quebecers and see if we do well out of it". I can assure you that no one will, neither the Reformers, nor the Liberals, let alone democracy.
The reason it will not pay off is because, contrary to the situation that existed in the good old days, Quebec is represented in this House. The people of Quebec democratically elected representatives to look after their interests. And we will stand up for ourselves. There is no way that we will leave Reform and government members a clear field to make all kinds of false representations. No way. We will set the record straight, as we did throughout the referendum campaign, and we will keep at it.
I think that I just hit a nerve. The fact that, in October 1993, the people of Quebec entrusted a group of members from Quebec with the job of looking after their interests is significant, in my opinion. I take this opportunity to thank the people of my riding of Berthier-Montcalm for the mandate they have given me.
We can see clearly today how important it is to have representatives capable of standing up for Quebec in this House because
these people would have us believe all sorts of things. The time has come to stand up and say: "This is wrong. That us not how democracy works. This is not the kind of democracy that our forefathers have built over the years". The time has come to show the right way.
Finally, regarding the motion put forward by the Reform Party, which was longer than the government's amendment, much was said and the hon. member for Charlesbourg was clearly accused of having made statements viewed as seditious and offensive by the Reformers. At least, they had the merit of making themselves clear. Reform members must at least be credited for saying what they think. I cannot say as much about the Liberals, unfortunately. This motion has been amended by the Liberal Party; I feel this amendment is hypocritical. They took the original motion, and removed whatever did not suit them. There is no mention of anything being seditious or offensive; the communiqué is simply referred to a House committee for consideration. What should be studied other than the communiqué itself, other than the member's statement?
In my opinion, the proposed amendment is obscure, it hides something, because the hon. members are not saying the truth. They could have acted openly and publicly by saying: "We think what the member for Charlesbourg and his Bloc colleagues have done is unacceptable, and we want the issue to be examined by a House committee." Would that have been politically wise? I doubt it.
I doubt that voters, particularly in Quebec, would go for such a statement. Liberal members, being really able to express their opinion on an issue raised by Reform members, have simply decided to hide this opinion behind a small amendment.
At this point, several questions come to mind. Why should we refer the communiqué to the House committee? While we are at it, why not ask the committee to examine the Bloc's program as well? Why not start referring to that House committee all Bloc members' past and future communiqués? Why not have all that examined as well? Why not-since things are going so well-ask the House to censor the statements that we are about to make here? Why not strike a parliamentary committee on censorship? This would provide us with a committee that, given its great wisdom, would decide what could or could not be said, what Quebec members could do or not do.
That is the objective of this whole show put on by the Reformers and the Liberals. They are true Siamese twins as regards this issue: two bodies but only one head. But I will not tell you about the level of intelligence in that head.
I sincerely think that it is dangerous to refer to a communiqué released by a member of Parliament to have that member judged by his peers.
We are talking about using a communiqué released by a politician expressing his political ideas to have that person judged by a parliamentary committee. What will be the outcome of that exercise, given that the individuals who will review the issue are for the most part Liberal and Reform members?
We already know the outcome: the accusers will be the judges, at least most of them. In what country do we live? Where are we headed? One wonders.
Those who condemn the member for Charlesbourg really want to put on trial the whole sovereignist movement-and it is indeed the case, given some of the comments made in this House. Two justices of the peace, one in Quebec and one in Ontario, have ruled that the statement contained in the communiqué is nothing more than a job offer. In spite of that, parliamentarians in this House decided to go against these decisions and engage in this political procedure. And that is dangerous.
I have a confession to make: I too made the same statement as the hon. member for Charlesbourg in my own riding. All the other Bloc Quebecois members did, whether it was to federal public servants, Canada Post employees, workers at the Canada Employment Centre, or to RCMP officers at the Joliette detachment. I told them: "It will be nice; the day after a yes vote, you will be working in a sovereign Quebec". There is nothing wrong with such statements. People were wondering: "What will happen to our jobs? What will happen to us the day after a yes vote?"
It is perfectly normal to provide details, as the federalists did when they told our seniors: "If you vote yes, you will lose your pensions". Consequently, we had to use similar arguments and say: "Come on, the federalists are trying to give you a good scare about your pensions. The day after a yes vote, your cheque will come from Quebec instead of Ottawa. It is with our taxes that they pay you that pension".
It is the same with members of the military; they had to be reassured because they were wondering. When I am told that, with a communiqué, we exerted influence on members of the military or incited them to disloyalty, I think this shows a lack of confidence in the people serving in the Forces. I even feel it is an insult to them because a closer look at the referendum results would show that the vote of Quebecers in the Canadian Forces, whether male or female, francophone or anglophone, followed about the same pattern as that shown by the national results in Quebec.
Therefore, about 50 per cent of Canadian Forces members voted in favour of sovereignty and about as many voted against.
If it is a crime to advise people about what would happen after a yes win on sovereignty, then I plead guilty. If it is a crime to reassure people faced with the nonsense put forward by the federalists, I am guilty of that too. If it is a crime to stand for the interests of my constituents, for the interests of Quebec and for sovereignty, I am guilty of that too.
If inviting people in general-and I will close with that-to respect a democratic decision and, after a yes win, to transfer their loyalty and their love to the new country, the country that would be called Quebec, is a crime, then I plead guilty. I am guilty of being a democrat.