Debates of March 21st, 1996

The Economy

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I assume that either the Prime Minister did not hear my question or he did not understand it.

We are talking about manoeuvring for the next referendum in Quebec. The premier of Quebec has committed his government to deficit elimination. He will then blame any failure to meet that target on deficit unloading by the federal government, of which there was a great deal in the recent budget. There is a trap here. I challenge the Prime Minister to avoid it.

Will the Prime Minister guarantee that the federal government will be in better shape than the separatist Government of Quebec on deficit elimination, debt reduction and tax relief prior to the next referendum?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are way ahead today. We are also way ahead of the Ontario government. We have managed to do that in a civilized way, in the Liberal way. It will not be by slashing and burning or by not caring whether people are suffering in our society like the Reform Party would do.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is sleep walking again on this issue in preparation for the next contest with the separatists in Quebec. In order to win that contest the federal government must appear fiscally stronger and more fiscally responsible than the separatist Government of Quebec. It has to be ahead on debt elimination, it has to be ahead on debt reduction and it has to be ahead on tax relief. Unbelievably, the government seems to be willing to trail the separatists on these three counts.

Does the Prime Minister not realize that by dragging his feet on those three subjects or talking a lot about those three subjects but not addressing them, he is weakening the federalist position even before the next contest with the Quebec separatists begins?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the third party is getting up for his fourth strike.

We are ahead. We started two and a half years ago and we are ahead of our program. Interest rates will recede again. At this moment they are below the interest rates of the United States. Interest rates in Canada have dropped three points in the last 12 months. We managed to do that while making sure that the people who are the weakest in Canadian society were not the ones who paid the price.

Manpower Training

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

On Wednesday, the Prime Minister refused to hand over active measures by hiding behind remarks allegedly made by Ghislain Dufour to the effect that the consensus was about manpower training. Yesterday at the Quebec summit, it was Mr. Dufour who introduced a motion to have all manpower training active measures transferred back to Quebec. He even volunteered to accompany Mrs. Harel.

I ask again: In view of this clearly expressed consensus and the October 30 results, will the Prime Minister show good faith and take a realistic attitude by agreeing to transfer to Quebec all active measures and relevant budgets?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I believe it is important to emphasize again the good faith demonstrated by all those involved in this issue.

On March 18, I sent a letter to the minister responsible for this issue in Quebec, in which I said, in essence, the following: "I do recognize the fact that there is a consensus in Quebec and that the province is very serious about taking charge of the active measures relating to Quebec's labour market, as indicated in the motion passed by the National Assembly of Quebec on December 4, 1995. Moreover, I fully agree with some of the principles set forth in the document received from you. These principles-the need for integrated active labour market measures, partnerships, decentral-

ized decision making, result-oriented action-are perfectly in keeping with those outlined by the Government of Canada in Part II of the bill. It would seem to me that they are also closely akin to the positions taken by many of our colleagues from the other provinces, as described in the document issued by the ministerial council on social policy reform".

My hon. colleague should be reminded of the fact that we had already put this proposal forward before this gathering took place in Montreal and Quebec City this week.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister-since he has been the one answering in the past three days-realize that having two overlapping systems is expensive: $250 million, according to the previous Liberal government? What is he waiting for then to let employee and employer contributions be put to use to create jobs rather than to enhance the visibility of the federal government?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I think that some kind of a consensus has been reached, even between us and members representing the opposition in this House. In fact, if you listened to what I was proposing to the Quebec minister responsible, all we are waiting for now is for a Quebec delegation to come and tell us what they have to propose on the basis of the Quebec consensus and what is already provided for in Part II of Bill C-12-

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

It is not the same thing.

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, it is not the same thing.

What is happening is that the Bloc Quebecois never says the same thing from one day to the next. Their rambling is very difficult to follow.

Byelections

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Reform Party was told directly by the Haitian embassy and by our own foreign affairs protocol office that the Haitian president was not scheduled to come to Canada after his Washington visit until just last week. The arranging of this trip was directly connected to the byelection. The Prime Minister should have known this yesterday when he said: "There was no connection at all. There was none. There was none".

Will the Prime Minister withdraw his incorrect statements, admit there has been a serious manipulation of a byelection and ask the ethics counsellor to investigate this unfortunate misuse of power?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is becoming increasingly evident that the definition of the new politics of the Reform Party is to reduce everything to the most base partisan level absolutely possible.

It is absolutely deplorable that the hon. member is taking a visit from the newly elected President of Haiti, who is visiting his major partners, the Dominican Republic, the United States and Canada, countries which are directly involved in the development and reconstruction of his country and responsible for the United Nations force to talk about its implementation, and turning it into a partisan attack. It is absolutely deplorable.

[Bob Mills, Reform, Red Deer, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the critical question is: When was the invitation issued?

The Haitians have told the Reform Party the truth. Liberal golden boy Pierre Pettigrew has used his government influence to bring in the Haitian president to help him win the byelection campaign.

Does the Prime Minister categorically deny that his government arranged for the Haitian president's Montreal visit just last week when it was discovered that the byelection was too close to call? If he will not deny this, will he admit that the government's actions have blatantly interfered with the byelection process and that was totally wrong?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, what is really wrong is the attitude, facts and presentation of the hon. member. The only thing wrong with the visit is the kind of position that party has taken.

Let me cite the facts. The decision of the Haitian president to come to Canada was based solely upon the need to work with the American government and our own government. He made that decision at a time that was most convenient after his inauguration. During his visit he is meeting with senior business leaders here in Ottawa and in Quebec. He is meeting with the leader of the Government of Quebec. He is also meeting with the Leader of the Opposition. There is nothing partisan about that. He just wants to meet with people who are interested in the welfare of Haiti. That is one reason he is not meeting with the Reform Party.

Taxation

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. Yesterday, at the end of the summit, the premier of Quebec announced the establishment of a roving commission on taxation that will review the whole tax system as part of a transparent process that will call for public input.

Can the Prime Minister tell us why his government has decided that the tax system should be reviewed behind closed doors by a small group of experts, a group of insiders who have become rich by using tax shelters, who in fact would not benefit in any way from any changes?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, any tax reform would lead to the introduction of a bill in the House of Commons, which then decides if the bill is good or bad. Whether or not there is a roving commission, what counts is the bill that comes before Parliament.

So far, the Minister of Finance has shown that he can bring down very balanced budgets, from which he himself has eliminated a considerable number of tax loopholes, including family trusts, an issue that was raised by the hon. member. I think that the method used by Canada's Minister of Finance is quite effective.

As I was saying earlier, Canadian interest rates have dropped by three points in the last year. Our interest rates are now lower than those in the U.S. Everyone has their own way of doing things, but I am quite satisfied with the method that has been used so far by Canada's Minister of Finance.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is telling us that there is no problem, that the foxes are guarding the henhouse and even contributing to Liberal Party coffers. Well, the foxes are going to reach biased conclusions, because these committee experts advise large corporations on how to avoid paying their fair share to Revenue Canada. The Prime Minister is telling us: "There is no problem; we are in good hands". The world has turned topsy-turvy.

If the Prime Minister wants his government to be credible when it says it wants to restore fair and equitable taxation in Canada, he should immediately undertake to open up and democratize his committee by getting all Canadians involved, because taxation concerns everyone, and not only those who benefit.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I find it totally deplorable that the official opposition's finance critic does not have enough confidence in himself and his team to defend his views.

I know full well that Liberal members on the committee will take whatever action is necessary to protect the interests of the most vulnerable in our society, as the Liberal Party has done throughout its history.

Goods And Services Tax

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, during the last federal election campaign Liberals proclaimed their hatred for the goods and services tax. From Bonavista to Vancouver Island the chorus was "vote for us and we'll kill, abolish and scrap the GST".

However, last night when a motion was put to the House to kill, scrap, abolish the GST, what happened? The Liberals defeated their own election promise.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Why has the Liberal government broken that election promise?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I know why. How many flip-flops has the leader of the Reform Party made on that over the last few years?

If the hon. member were to read the red book on page 22 he would have his answer.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Liberal candidates in the last federal election did not knock on doors and say: "Please send me to Parliament because I want to harmonize, I want to co-ordinate, I want to integrate federal and provincial taxes so that we can tax you more efficiently". That is not what they said.

They repeated the promises made by the finance minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister to kill and abolish the GST. I ask the Prime Minister very simply so that he does not evade the answer to this question. Why did he mislead Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think that if he translates page 22 of the red book into French, he will know what we said.

Canadian Armed Forces

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

It is reported that Canadian soldiers have once again engaged in hazing at the Gagetown base, in New Brunswick, and that the military police is conducting an investigation into these events, which could further tarnish the Canadian armed forces' reputation.

Since the Minister of National Defence had given formal orders banning such activities, are we to understand that the minister's authority over our Canadian forces is seriously lacking?

[John Richardson, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr.

Speaker, the minister is aware of the allegations that have been made and he has been assured that the Canadian forces are investigating this matter. It is presently under investigation.

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the beginning of this Parliament, we always hear the same answer: an investigation is underway.

If his government is still in charge, this time will the Prime Minister refuse to let his minister punish only enlisted men and will he demand that the real culprits, namely the high-ranking officers, be punished rather than being promoted?