Motion No. 2

That Bill C-14, in Clause 6, be amended by adding after line 3, on page 4, the following:

""main line" means a railway line in Canada of a railway company under the legislative authority of Parliament that, relative to all other railway lines within the company's railway system in Canada, provides the primary means of moving goods from one or more provinces to one or more provinces."

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Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I wonder if the House could deem the following to have been put: Motions Nos. 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Shall the House consider them as having been read?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

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NDP

Vic Althouse NDP Mackenzie, SK

moved:

Motion No. 28

That Bill C-14, in Clause 139, be amended by replacing lines 7 to 15, on page 64, with the following:

"Council's own initiative, b ) after consultation with the minister of transportation in the provinces that will be affected, and; c ) after any investigation that the Governor in Council considers necessary, request two or more railway companies to consider the joint or common use of a right-of-way if the Governor in Council is of the opinion that its joint or common use may improve the efficiency and effectiveness of rail transport, of municipal land use or of road transportation and would not unduly impair the''.

Motion No. 29

That Bill C-14, in Clause 140, be amended by replacing lines 36 and 37, on page 64, with the following: a ) a main line; b ) a yard track, siding or spur; or c ) other track auxiliary to a railway line''.

Motion No. 30

That Bill C-14, in Clause 141, be amended by replacing lines 11 and 12, on page 65, with the following:

"of company located in the vicinity of each of the lines identified in the plan".

Motion No. 32

That Bill C-14, in Clause 142, be amended by adding after line 29, on page 65, the following:

"(3) Where the Agency determines that a branch line or a segment thereof is economic or that, although a branch line or segment is uneconomic, there is a reasonable probability of its becoming economic in the foreseeable future, the Agency shall, within six months after the application for the abandonment is received by the Agency, order that the operation of the branch line or segment be abandoned, unless it determines that the operation of the branch line or segment is required in the public interest.

(4) In determining whether the operation of a branch line or a segment thereof is required in the public interest, the Agency shall consider all matters that in its opinion are relevant to the public interest, including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing: a ) the actual losses, if any, that are incurred by the railway company in the operation of the branch line or segment; b ) the alternative transportation facilities available or likely to be available in the area served by the branch line or segment, including those proposed to be made available by the applicant, and the ability of those facilities to meet the needs of shippers located in that area; c ) the extent to which the applicant would be prepared to provide and support alternative transportation facilities in lieu of operating the branch line or segment; d ) whether it would be more economic to use alternative transportation facilities in the area served by the branch line or segment; e ) the period of time reasonably required for the purpose of adjusting any facilities that are wholly or partly dependent on the services provided by the branch line or segment with the least disruption to the economy of the area served thereby; f ) the probable effect on other lines and other carriers and on the transportation system generally of the abandonment of the operation of the branch line or segment on different dates; g ) the economic effect of the abandonment of the operation of the branch line or segment on the communities and area served by the branch line; h ) the feasibility of maintaining the branch line or segment as an operating line by changes in the method of operation or by inter-connection with other lines of the company; i ) the feasibility of maintaining the branch line or segment as an operating line, either jointly with or as part of the system of another company, by the sale or lease of the line or segment to another company or by the exchange of operating or running rights between companies or otherwise, including, where necessary, the construction of connecting lines with the lines of other companies; and j ) the existing and potential resources of the area served by the branch line or segment, seasonal restrictions on other forms of transportation in the area and the probable future transportation needs of the area.''

Motion No. 39

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"Division VI

Applications for Abandonment of Operation of Railway Lines

146.1 (1) No railway company shall abandon the operation of a main line, otherwise than pursuant to an order of the Agency made under this Division on the application of the company.

(2) For greater certainty, subsection (1) does not apply in respect of a yard track, siding or spur, or other track auxiliary to a railway line."

Motion No. 40

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.2(1) Subject to subsection (3), a railway company shall, not less than ninety days before making an application to the Agency for the abandonment of the operation of a main line, give notice to the Agency that it intends to make the application.

(2) A notice referred to in subsection (1) shall be given in the prescribed form and manner to the Agency and to the prescribed persons or classes of persons and shall be accompanied by a ) a statement of costs and revenues of the company attributable to the main line in each of the prescribed financial years of the company; and b ) a statement setting out the amount of traffic moving over the line in each of those years.

(3) An application to abandon the operation of a main line shall be made in the prescribed form and manner and shall be accompanied by a ) a statement of costs and revenues of the company attributable, directly or indirectly, to the main line in each of the prescribed financial years of the company; and b ) a statement setting out the amount of traffic moving over the line in each of those years.

(4) Notice of an application accompanied by the statements of costs, revenues and traffic referred to in subsection (3) shall be given by the railway company in the prescribed form and manner to the prescribed persons or classes of persons.

(5) Notwithstanding subsections (2) to (4) the Agency may, in respect of a particular application, direct that notice of the proposed application or of the application be given a ) in a form or manner other than the prescribed form and manner; b ) only to such persons or classes as the Agency considers appropriate; or

(c) to persons or classes of persons other than prescribed persons or classes of persons."

Motion No. 41

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.3 Any person may oppose an application to abandon the operation of a main line by filing with the Agency, not more than sixty days after the date of the notice given under subsection 146.2(4), a written statement setting forth the grounds, related to the statements referred to in paragraphs (3)( a ) and (3)( b ), on which that person opposes the application.''

Motion No. 42

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.4 Where an application is not opposed under section 146.3, and no offer to purchase the main line is made within the period mentioned in that section, the Agency shall forthwith order that the operation of the main line be abandoned."

Motion No. 43

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.5(1) Where an application is opposed under section 149, the Agency shall a ) review the statement of costs and revenues accompanying the applications and all other documents, facts and figures that in its opinion are relevant in making the determination referred to in paragraph ( b ); b ) determine the amount of actual loss, if any, of the railway company attributable to the main line in each of the prescribed financial years; and c ) cause such public notice of the determination made under paragraph ( b ) and of the principal factors applied in making that determination to be given as the Agency considers appropriate.

(2) In performing its duties under subsection (1), the Agency may refuse to give the company that made the application an opportunity to make further submissions with respect to the matters mentioned in that subsection."

Motion No. 44

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.6 The Agency shall, after publication of the notice referred to in subsection 146.2(1) and after holding such hearings, if any, as are required in its opinion to enable all persons who wish to do so to present their views on the abandonment of the operation of the main line, including, where applicable, their views respecting the matters to be considered under section 146.9 to determine a ) whether the main line and segment thereof, where the Agency considers that a separate determination ought to be made in respect of the segment are economic or uneconomic; and b ) whether there is a reasonable probability of the main line and any segment thereof in respect of which a separate determination is made under paragraph ( a ) becoming economic in the foreseeable future, if it is uneconomic, or c ) whether the continued operation of the main line or a segment is required in the public interest.''

Motion No. 45

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.7 (1) Where the Agency determines that ( a ) a main line or segment thereof is uneconomic and that there is no reasonable probability of its becoming economic; and ( b ) the main line is not required in the public interest, no later than six months after the application for the abandonment is received by the Agency, the Agency shall order that the operation of the main line or segment be abandoned

(2) The Governor in Council may, by order made on the application of a shipper, of municipal or provincial governemnt or an agent thereof, vary the date fixed in an order made under subsection ( a ) as varied by any previous order made under this subsection, before that date by fixing a later date, not later than the day that is five years after the date of the order made under subsection (1) or that of the last variation order made under this subsection, whichever day last occurs, where the Governor in Council considers that a ) the actual losses, if any, that have been incurred by the railway company in the operation of the main line or segment; b ) the abandonment of the operation of the line or segment would have a significant impact on a large region of Canada; c ) the abandonment of the operation of the line or segment would have a major impact on shippers; or d ) there is a lack of adequate alternative transportation facilities in the area served by the line or segment.''

Motion No. 46

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.8 Notwithstanding that the Agency has determined that a main line or a segment thereof is economic or that there is a reasonable probability that the line or segment will become economic in the foreseeable future, it shall not order that the operation of a main line or segment be abandoned when it has determined that the operation of the line or segment is required in the public interest."

Motion No. 47

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.9 In determining whether the operation of a main line or a segment thereof is required in the public interest, the Agency shall consider all matters that in its opinion are relevant to the public interest, including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing. a ) the actual losses, if any, that have been incurred by the railway company in the operation of the main line or segment; b ) the alternative transportation facilities available or likely to be available in the area served by the main line or segment, including those proposed to be made available by the applicant, and the ability of those facilities to meet the needs of shippers located in that area; c ) the extent to which the applicant would be prepared to provide and support alternative transportation facilities in lieu of operating the main line or segment; d ) whether it would be more economical to use alternative transportation facilities in the area served by the main line or segment; e ) the period of time reasonably required for the purpose of adjusting any facilities that are wholly or partly dependent on the services provided by the main line or segment with the least disruption to the economy of the area served thereby; f ) the probable effect on other lines and other carriers and on the transportation system generally of the abandonment, on different dates, of the operation of the main line or segment; g ) the economic effect of the abandonment of the operation of the main line or segment on the communities and area served by the branch line; h ) the feasibility of maintaining the main line or segment as an operating line by changes in the method of operation through the interconnection with other lines of the company; i ) the feasibility of maintaining the main line or segment as an operating line, either jointly with or as part of the system of another company, by the sale or lease of the line or segment to another company or by the exchange of operating or running rights between companies or otherwise, including, where necessary, the construction of connecting lines with the lines of other companies; j ) the existing and potential resources of the area served by the main line or segment, seasonal restrictions on other forms of transportation in the area and the probable future transportation needs of the area.''

Motion No. 48

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.10 (1) In making an order under section 146.4, 146.7 or 146.8 for the abandonment of the operation of a main line or segment thereof, the Agency shall fix a ) a date that is one year after the date for the abandonment, where VIA Rail Canada Inc. operates a passenger service on the branch line or segment or the branch line or segment is identified in a plan of VIA Rail Canada Inc., approved by the Governor in Council, for the proposed development or expansion of its passenger service as being required for the implementation of the plan; or b ) in any other case, such date for the abandonment as it considers to be in the public interest.

(2) A date fixed under paragraph (1)( b ) shall not be less than thirty days or more than one year after the date of the order.

(3) Where a date for the abandonment of the operation of a main line or segment has been fixed under paragraph (1)( a ), VIA Rail Canada Inc. may, within six months after the date of the order, require the railway company that operates the main line or segment to transfer it to VIA Rail Canada Inc. on the date fixed, in return for the payment by VIA Rail Canada Inc. of such amount as is agreed on by VIA Rail Canada Inc. and the railway company or, where no such agreement is reached before that date, of an amount that represents no more than the net salvage value of the main line or segment.

(4) VIA Rail Canada Inc. shall, forthwith after requiring the transfer of a main line or a segment under subsection (3), notify the Agency that it has done so.

(5) Where VIA Rail Canada Inc. requires the transfer of a main line or a segment under subsection (3), the railway company that operates the main line or segment shall, on the date fixed under paragraph (1)( a ), as varied under section 41 or subsection 146.7(2) or 146.12(2), transfer the main line or segment to VIA Rail Canada Inc.

(6) Where VIA Rail Canada Inc. and the railway company do not agree (before the date fixed under paragraph (1)( a )) on the amount to be paid, the Agency shall within forty-five days after receiving a request by VIA Rail Canada Inc. or the railway company, determine the net salvage value of the main line or segment.

(7) VIA Rail Canada Inc. shall, forthwith after the transfer of the main line or segment or the making of a determination under subsection (6), whichever is the later date, pay the amount agreed on or the amount determined to be the net salvage value of the line or segment, as the case may be.

(8) Subsection (5) does not apply where the order for abandonment is rescinded under subsection 146.12(1).

(9) Where a main line or segment is transferred by a railway company under subsection (5): a ) the railway company shall cease to have any obligations under this or any other Act of Parliament in respect of the operation of the line or segment; b ) VIA Rail Canada Inc. shall have no obligations under this or any other Act of Parliament in respect of the carriage of goods on the line or segment; c ) the line or segment shall be declared to be a work for the general advantage of Canada; and d ) VIA Rail Canada Inc. may, notwithstanding subsection 146.1(1), abandon the operation of the main line or segment, where operation of the passenger service is discontinued or the main line or segment is no longer identified in a plan described in paragraph (1)( a ) as being required for the implementation of the plan.''

Motion No. 49

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.11(1) Where the Agency determines that the operation of a main line or a segment thereof is required in the public interest, it shall, within six months after the application for the abandonment is received by the agency a ) where the main line or segment is economic, dismiss the application in whole or as to that segment, and b ) where the main line or segment is uneconomical but there is a reasonable probability of its becoming economical in the foreseeable future, order that the operation of the main line or segment be abandoned.

(2) The dismissal under subsection (1) of an application by a railway company is without prejudice to the right of the company to make another application for the abandonment of the operation of a branch line or segment."

Motion No. 50

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.12(1) In making a determination under section 146.6 and in determining whether the operation of a main line or a segment thereof is required in the public interest, the Agency may a ) hear applications as a group, on dates fixed by the Agency, for the abandonment of the operation of railway lines that are situated in the same area or adjoining areas as determined by the Agency; b ) require any company, other than the company making the application, that operates one or more railway lines in an area, as determined by the Agency, in which at least one main line with respect to which an application has been made is located, to furnish to the Agency, for such of its lines in the area as the Agency may specify, figures, for such years and in such form as the Agency may specify, a statement setting out the amount of traffic moving over the lines; and c ) without limiting its power to consider applications in any order that the Agency considers appropriate, require a company that has made more than one application for abandonment to specify the order in which it desires the Agency to consider the applications.

(2) The Agency shall treat as confidential all information provided to it pursuant to a requirement under paragraph (1)( b ), other than information relating to the main line in respect of which an application for abandonment has been made.''

Motion No. 51

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.13(1) At least once every five years after an application for the abandonment of the operation of a main line has been received by the Agency, it shall reconsider the application in accordance with this section, and shall determine the actual loss directly or indirectly attributable to the main line in accordance with subsection 146.5(1). a ) the operation of the main line has not been abandoned; b ) the application has not been dismissed under subsection 146.9; c ) the main line has not been transferred to VIA Rail Canada Inc. under subsection 146.10(5).

(2) The Agency shall give notice of the reconsideration in the prescribed form and manner to the prescribed persons or classes of persons that it proposes.

(3) Notwithstanding subsection (2) and any regulations made under section 146.17, the Agency may, in respect of a particular application, give notice that it proposes to reconsider an application a ) in a form or manner other than the prescribed form and manner; b ) only to such persons or classes of persons as the Agency considers appropriate; or c ) to persons or classes of persons other than prescribed persons or classes of persons.

(4) Sections 146.3 to 146.10 and this section apply in respect of the reconsideration of every application in the same way that they apply in respect of an application made under section 146.2."

Motion No. 52

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.14(1) The Agency may rescind an order that the operation of a branch line or segment thereof be abandoned, only a ) before the date for abandonment fixed therein; and b ) with the concurrence of the railway company that operates the line or segment; and

(2) The Agency may vary the date fixed in an order for the abandonment of the operation of a main line or segment thereof before that date only by fixing a later date that is within two years after the date of the order for the abandonment and is not later than one year after the later of the date of the order for the abandonment and the last variation order, if any."

Motion No. 53

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.15(1) An offer to purchase a main line or a segment thereof for a price, which shall not be more than the net salvage value of the line or segment, may be made to the railway company that operates the line or segment by any other railway company that is authorized to operate the line or segment, in order to continue to operate it, during the period beginning on the date on which the company that operates the line or segment gives notice under section 146.2 that it proposes to make an application for the abandonment of the operation of the line and ending where the application is not opposed under section 146.3, on the expiration of the period mentioned in section 146.3 and, where the application is so opposed, on the date of the order that the operation of the line be abandoned.

(2) Every railway company that makes an offer under subsection (1) shall forthwith file a copy of the offer with the Agency.

(3) Where an offer has been made under subsection (1) in respect of a main line or a segment thereof, the Agency may, after holding such hearings, if any, as are in its opinion required to enable all persons who wish to do so to present their views on the transfer of the line or segment, make an order to transfer.

(4) An order under subsection (3) shall provide that the price to be paid by the company making the offer to the company operating the line for the line or segment will be a ) the amount that is agreed to by the companies; or b ) where there is no such agreement, no more than the net salvage value of the line or segment, as determined by the Agency.

(5) If, pursuant to an order under subsection (3), a main line or segment operated by one railway company is transferred to another railway company a ) the railway company that operated the line or segment ceases to have any obligations under this or any other Act of Parliament in respect of the operation of the line or segment; b ) if the railway company to which the line or segment is transferred is within the legislative authority of Parliament,

(i) that railway company shall be deemed to have assumed all the obligations under this or any other Act of Parliament in respect of the operation of the line or segment, and

(ii) the line or segment shall continue to be a main line for the purposes of this Division, even though it is a subsidiary, secondary, local or feeder line of that railway company; c ) if there is, at the time of the transfer, an agreement between the railway company that operated the line or segment and VIA Rail Canada Inc. in respect of the operation of a rail passenger service on the line or segment,

(i) the rights and obligations under the agreement of the railway company that operated the line or segment in respect of the operation of that service vest in the railway company to which the line or segment is transferred and continue, as amended by agreement between VIA Rail Canada Inc. and the company to which the line or segment is transferred, until the operation of the line or segment is abandoned or the operation of the service is discontinued, and

(ii) the line or segment is hereby declared to be a work for the general advantage of Canada; d ) where the railway company to which the line or segment is transferred is not within the legislative authority of Parliament and there is not at the time of the transfer an agreement described in paragraph ( c ) in respect of the line or segment, any declaration that the line or segment is a work for the general advantage of Canada ceases to have effect; and e ) the application, if any, for the abandonment of the operation of the line or segment is thereby discontinued in whole or as to that segment.

(6) The declaration referred to in subparagraph (5)( c )(ii) ceases to have effect in respect of a line or segment on the abandonment of the operation of the line or segment or on the discontinuance of the operation of the rail passenger service on the line or segment.

(7) Where the Agency determines under subsection (3) that the transfer of the main line or a segment thereof to the company making the offer would not be in the public interest, the Agency shall give notice of that determination to that company and the company operating the line."

Motion No. 54

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.16 Every railway company shall abandon the operation of a branch line or a segment thereof on the date fixed in an order made under section 146.4 or 146.7, as varied under section 41 or subsection 146.7 (2) or section 146.14, unless the order is rescinded under section 41 or subsection 146.11."

Motion No. 55

That Bill C-14 be amended by adding after line 39, on page 68, the following new Clause:

"146.17 The Agency may, with the approval of the Governor in Council, make regulations a ) modifying, to such extent as the Agency deems necessary, the provisions of any of sections 146.2 to 146.14 so as to make those provisions applicable to the abandonment of the operation of main lines of railway; b ) prescribing the form and manner of making applications for the abandonment of the operation of lines and the procedure to be followed in dealing with those applications; c ) prescribing financial years for the purposes of section 160 and the time with reference to which those years are to be determined; d ) prescribing the form and manner of giving notice for the purposes of sections 146.2 and 146.11; e ) prescribing persons or classes of persons for the purposes of sections 146.2 and 146.11; f ) generally for carrying out the purposes and provisions of this Division.''

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Blainville—Deux-Montagnes Québec

Bloc

Paul Mercier Blocfor Mr. Guimond

moved:

Motion No. 31

That Bill C-14, in Clause 141, be amended by adding after line 17, on page 65, the following:

"(4) A plan prepared by a railway company that does not indicate the company's intention to discontinue operation of a line shall not be amended by the company for twelve months."

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Victoria B.C.

Liberal

David Anderson LiberalMinister of Transport

moved:

Motion No. 35

That Bill C-14, in Clause 145, be amended by replacing lines 19 to 22, on page 67, with the following:

"Canada,

(ii) land that is or was a reserve, as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Indian Act, or

(iii) land that is the subject of an agreement entered into by the railway company and the Minister for the settlement of aboriginal land claims;".

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Reform

Jim Gouk Reform Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC

Mr. Speaker, most of the amendments appeared in the Order Paper for the first time yesterday with the notice of intention to bring this bill forward. It has been quite a scramble with 82 amendments to come up with some reasonable debate for today. We still have to sort through many of these. We want to make sound judgment decisions on these, not snap decisions. I do ask your patience as I am sorting through these.

With regard to Motion No. 2, I do support this. Basically it brings an old and acceptable definition of a federal railway into the new act. I see no reason not to go with that.

With regard to Motion No. 28 and moving onward, I will pass over some of these very quickly because they require little comment. On Motion No. 28 I do not believe there is any justification for this. This we will not be supporting, nor will we be supporting Motion No. 29.

In the case of Motion No. 29, and this will come up often under several of the motions by this member, this is inconsistent in my opinion with the intent of the bill. The hon. member did appear at the odd committee meeting. I recognize he is not a member and that he has other obligations, but various parts of these things were discussed at length in committee by all the parties present.

Unfortunately he seems to be either missing part of it or by not taking part in the actual debate and participating did not understand the intent of what this bill is all about.

With regard to Motion No. 30, also made the member, I will be supporting it although I think it could have been better defined. It is an improvement over that section of the bill nonetheless.

Now we get into a mixture with the hon. member from the Bloc Quebecois. Motion No. 31 is a reasonable proposal as it deals with rail abandonment and I do not have a problem with it.

On Motion No. 32 from the hon. member from the NDP, once again this goes completely against the widely accepted abandonment policy this bill has attempted to bring in, one I have support.

There was a bit of controversial discussion of this during our hearings at committee, but I think the explanation was well given. Most of the witnesses who came before the committee did accept this.

With regard to Motion No. 35 presented by the minister I believe all parties are in agreement with this motion and that it should pose no difficulty.

With regard to Motion No. 36, of course I will be supporting. It was put in on very sound information; I put this motion in. We believe this provides reasonable protection for the interest of utility companies.

We had a lot of input on this. I have spoken with several of the hon. members from the other side. This is where I hope we do not get into what we have found in the past where individually they all agree with our position but collectively they vote opposite our position.

I hope they will give this due consideration and in the end decide to vote with the interests of the public. This is not in the interest of one or two companies. This is in the interest of the general public, the interest we are trying to protect with this motion.

Likewise, Motion No. 37 continues the same.

My hon. colleague from Okanagan Centre mentioned Motion No. 38 with regard to the Liberals' indication that they are not supporting Atlantic Canada with Motion No. 25, for which they have already indicated no support. This motion asks for a provision to continue the CN line from Montreal to Halifax for a period of five years.

Under Bill C-89, the CN privatization, I brought this up at the committee level. I asked for a 10 year of continuance at that time. The port authority from Halifax came forward and made a very sound and logical argument as to why this should be considered.

This is not something that goes against anyone. It is simply an assurance that they will have a period of time to get financing for the necessary infrastructure improvements for post-Panamax vessels in place with an assurance that there is a rail line in place to carry their goods to central Canada and the American mid-west. With the use of the CN line and the Sarnia tunnel the port of Halifax is superior to anything in the New England states or in New York.

We are moving to a deregulatory privatization or commercialization of the ports coming up very soon in the new year. The former Minister of Transport put us on notice of that in December.

For an investor to look at the port of Halifax which under this new act will have to find money in the marketplace without government guarantees, any wise investor will say: "What guarantee of return do I have on this? What happens if that line is taken out?"

During committee study on this the head of CN Rail, Mr. Paul Tellier, came before us as a witness. He is required under this new act, when passed, to put out a three year outline of any line he proposes to sell off or abandon. I said: "If you are to project for three years obviously you have to look beyond that, four or five or possibly beyond that. I ask you now in keeping with that, can you tell us if you have any plans over the next five years to abandon the rail between Montreal and Halifax". His answer was an emphatic no. It is not a hardship on CN.

Some hon. members opposite, particularly when I raised this on Bill C-89, said: "This is unbelievable, the Reform Party interfering in the private marketplace by trying to put a restriction on a private company what it can or cannot do with its rail line".

Not only the Liberals but all governments for the past 80 years have interfered with the marketplace with CN Rail. It has caused most of the problems that we now have in our rail industry.

It is unreasonable after 80 years of interference for the government to arbitrarily cut the string with no transition period. A five year transition period is incredibly minimal, does not hurt anyone, does not hurt CN, and does not cost the government money. This is a win-win situation. I hope this time hon. members will support Atlantic Canada and give it this necessary provision so that

Atlantic Canada can become a shipping giant on the North American east coast and also a big boon for CN. It guarantees that traffic having come into Halifax must then be shipped on a Canadian rail system. I seriously ask them to consider their position on this one to make it non-partisan to support Atlantic Canada. All of Atlantic Canada will be watching.

Moving on to Motion No. 39, this motion by the hon. member from the NDP attempts to subvert the main purpose and intent of this bill. It carries on through Motions Nos. 40 to 55. Each of these in essence are amendments which attempt to defeat the entire bill.

I suggest to the hon. member that these are not supportable. He can vote against the bill as we may depending on what the Liberals do with certain very controversial clauses in this bill which we will be debating later on. However as the bill stands, I will not support these motions.