Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the words of my friends opposite, although I believe we should put this in the context of the examination that has taken place in committee.
It is true that our committee members, including opposition members, are bound to listen to and consider any position brought forward. However, this is the difference between this side of the House and the other. It is not simply the weight of people who arrive as witnesses that determine the outcome.
We do not believe we can have our role as government, as representatives of the people of Canada somehow suspended because a group of people, a large number of people, come on one side or the other. We have to analyse the merits of what is said and not simply count up the number of people who oppose or support a particular measure.
With respect to Motion No. 23, the committee did that. It considered the representations made and it came to the unanimous conclusion that this section of the bill did not require immense substantive amendment. In its view a regulatory decision must be accepted as being in good faith and must be considered fair and
reasonable. We cannot accept the intent of this motion which implies the opposite if we have any confidence whatsoever in the regulatory bodies the House sets up.
We do not support this motion, although I can assure hon. members it was carefully considered. The intent put forward is taken care of by the wording of the current bill.
With respect to Motion No. 24, the words listed are "must be commercially fair and reasonable to all parties". Obviously this is a government motion which we support for the following reasons. The provision gives guidance to the agency when it takes over from commercial negotiations between the parties so as to impose a rate or a level of service on the railway.
It is assumed that at the point when it takes over the commercial deliberations between the two parties have broken down. At that point the agency must have the guidance of this section, and it will. It must look at balance to ensure that when it examines the rate it will be fair and reasonable to all the parties.
Some stakeholders have said this phrase is unclear and will create excessive litigation. I do not believe so at all. In my view the average person in the public, the average person watching the televised proceedings of the House today will have pretty good idea in their own mind of what is fair and reasonable.
I think excessive use of the courts to get the lawyers to argue something which is not fair and reasonable, not the common sense meaning, would not succeed when we have a good regulatory agency such as the NTA.
Some litigation is inevitable with any new piece of legislation. It happened with the major transportation bills in 1967 and again 20 years later in 1987 and it will happen with this one. There will be challenges, of course. It happens every time there is a legislative change.
As to the claim that there are going to be hundreds of cases, let me just observe that the costs of litigation make that prohibitive, costs not only in terms of dollars but also in terms of time. These costs fall on all parties. Railways and shippers know that after one, two or three key cases they will have all the clarity they need from the NTA and the courts. What we will get as a result of the change are more successful commercial agreements for the rail service, which is the objective, where both parties and the entire Canadian economy wind up as the winners.
Clause 112 in the Canada Transportation Act, that the rate imposed by the agency be commercially fair and reasonable to all parties, is important and indeed vital for rail renewal in Canada which is obviously in the interests of producers and shippers as well. This will help put the required new balance into the formula for the benefit of all Canadians. Therefore, we definitely support Motion No. 24, just as we must oppose Motion No. 23.