Madam Speaker, when we saw Bill 96-which became Bill C-111-for the first time, we were very concerned, because this bill, which sets up a new department, the Department of Human Resources Development, in fact institutionalizes the overlap with all of the provinces, including, of course, Quebec. The way it is done makes it extremely difficult to amend this bill.
The Apostle Paul said: "For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life". It is extremely difficult to amend this legislation, because the words in it translate a spirit, which is the Department of Human Resources Development, but without defining it, give a minister of the federal government jurisdiction over all human resources development in Canada, when, as we know, the Constitution of 1867 made it the general responsibility of the provinces, which was then amended very precisely to provide for old age pensions, family allowances and an unemployment insurance scheme.
Apart from these three constitutional amendments, provincial responsibility remains intact. The effect of the bill then is to wipe out the responsibility of the provinces and enable a federal
minister to take it over with everybody's money. So the problem with Bill C-96 is not that the Minister of Human Resources Development may designate a minister of labour. No, the problem is the Minister of Human Resources Development. The Department of Human Resources Development is a Conservative holdover.
I know that not many of our colleagues across the way or beside us will admit it. But without Kim Campbell, whose government that lasted about 100 days decided to merge several departments for the avowed purpose-which cost her dearly-of carrying out a general reform of social programs, something the Liberals swore they would never do, I am convinced there would never have been a Department of Human Resources Development because it was a major upheaval.
Yet, the senior officials who submitted this proposal to Ms. Campbell are still there. I would like to tell my colleagues on this side, who are now on my left-this is but one way of referring to them, otherwise it would be improper-that the fewer ministers there are, the more senior officials lead the way; we must be very clear on this.
I think there is a very clear link between what came out in the last days of the Tory government and what the Liberal government came up with. I am sure the Conservatives could have done the same thing with social program reform, except that the Liberals, had they been in opposition, would have been vigorously opposed because this reform is totally unacceptable.
Let us look at the Department of Labour. There is a Canadian Department of Labour. Even if the Minister of Human Resources Development were not allowed to appoint a Minister of Labour, the Prime Minister could appoint one. In my opinion, this amendment would only prevent the Minister of Human Resources Development from appointing a designated minister. This is the only effect it might have. It would not prevent the Prime Minister from appointing a Minister of Labour.
Let us look at the Department of Labour, which is also the result of history. Federalists should perhaps be reminded that, had the London Privy Council not returned labour relations to provincial jurisdiction in 1925, labour relations would now come under federal jurisdiction. Fortunately, it is not the case, except for those employees who, without getting technical, work for the federal government or for organizations whose function is considered of national interest and therefore extends beyond the confines of a single province.
From a social point of view, Labour Canada is lagging behind now. We have no problem with there being a Department of Labour and no problem with there being a Minister of Labour, but we do have a problem with the positions she has taken. In the rail dispute, the Minister of Labour could have seized the opportunity to boost ideas of joint labour-management action.
Instead, she preferred boosting labour relations based on the primary interest of employers. Too bad, but just the same, it is sad. It is sad because Canada will never get out of the situation it is in right now if the current Minister of Labour and the government as a whole, including the Minister of Human Resources Development, do not stop displaying the attitude they have been displaying recently regarding employees.
This attitude is unworthy of a so-called Liberal government, but above all it is counter-productive if what their goal is indeed to improve the social and economic situation.
It is important to have a labour minister provided the minister sees to it that labour relations in organizations falling under his jurisdiction abide by rules allowing a certain power relationship between the parties. To replace the words "power relationship", we could talk about the ability the parties should have to talk to and listen to one another.
When one side, that is when employers are so strong that they do not care about workers-because the reverse is very rare-it is always dangerous, including from an economic point of view, because workers can resort to a measure that can have terrible consequences. Let us not forget that, while workers can be forced to work, they cannot be forced to work well. They cannot be forced to use all their imagination and motivation.
And without that imagination, that motivation and that commitment from workers, any economy is bound to suffer. In Canada, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Human Resources Development and the government should be much more concerned about ensuring that workers have decent working conditions and social security, precisely to promote that socio-economic productivity.