Madam Speaker, I feel it is important, as we start considering the
amendments to Bill C-11, to remind the House of the initial purpose of the bill, which is to create a Department of Human Resources Development. Incidentally, this department has already been in operation for three years, but the government went ahead without parliamentary approval and we are now trying to regularize the situation.
What is important to know is that this bill will, in short, formalize systematic encroachment in the areas of education and manpower and will, for the first time, make it possible for the federal government to legally interfere as much as it wants in all areas that have long been recognized as provincial jurisdictions.
Second, this department is, I believe, a bureaucratic monster that will encompass very different sectors. One may be a little surprised by the amendment put forth by the Reform Party, since not appointing a Minister of Labour would bring about this bureaucratic world. This, I think, goes against Reform policy, against giving members of Parliament and ministers more say in what the government does. Because of the size of this department, the minister must very often rely on the positions advocated by senior officials.
The best proof of this is the department's stubborn determination to go ahead with a UI reform no one in Quebec and Canada wants. After being told stories by bureaucrats and perhaps also by other groups that would benefit from a deterioration in people's working conditions, we must now deal with today's reality. We must not make the problem worse. I think the Reform amendment should be rejected.
Let us consider the consequences of no longer having a Minister of Labour. Let us not forget that some emergency situations may require special legislation, as when the government felt we needed a special law in the area of rail transport. Not having a Minister of Labour per se could create some very difficult situations. The Minister of Human Resources Development cannot spend all the time needed on those activities. There must be some independent thinking on issues that are closely related.
The Department of Human Resources Development deals with pension issues. The Minister of Labour often has to appoint people as negotiators or conciliators to intervene in labour conflicts involving this kind of situation, and he could be placed in a conflict of interest position. It would therefore be better for the government to appoint a Minister of Labour.
Another major reason to proceed like this in the future is that we must go ahead with the reform of the Canada Labour Code that has been promised for so long and on which the government is dragging its feet. If passed, the amendment put forward by the Reform Party would just give the government one more excuse to delay amending the labour code for another six, eight, twelve or eighteen months. But if, on the other hand, there was someone in cabinet who was identified as responsible for this, we could check with this person, in April, May or June, if indeed the consultations under way will result in changes to the labour code. Will anti-strikebreaking legislation covering federal areas of jurisdiction finally be introduced, yes or no? Only a minister can answer this kind of question.
If the responsibility rests with someone else in cabinet, this could be will just one issue among others and any delay, like those experienced in amending the labour code, will seem more normal or acceptable.
Let me give you another example. In the past weeks, a bill authorizing nuclear industries to be subject to provincial labour laws, if need be, was considered in committee.
If there were only one minister responsible, it would be more difficult to get things done, like having a sub-committee look into a matter. Should we need the minister to appear before the human resources development committee and the labour committee at the same time, it would be physically impossible for him to be at both places at the same time. This goes to show that the proposed amendment would have a very negative effect on labour relations in Quebec and Canada. I do not think that we will be able to support it.
Why is the Minister of Labour important? Why is it necessary to have one all the time and to be able to appoint one when the government sees fit? To make sure that action can be taken. The anti-scab legislation I referred to earlier is a very important issue in our society. There are two realities. There are workers who are covered by provisions ensuring that their labour relations with their employers are much healthier and on a more equal footing. The are also workers who have no protection in that respect.
Unless the federal government takes a strong stand, clearly showing his commitment to resolving this problem and actually resolving it, this will result in a repetition of situations like the dispute at Ogilvie Mills.
Remember the strike, not the one in 1920, but in 1995. Workers on the picket lines had to contend with bullies hired by the company to let non-union workers go in. Such a deplorable situation-the use of scabs-is very bad for labour relations. The malaise persists long after the signing of a collective agreement, sometimes forever. This type of situation greatly affects labour relations. If we do not have a labour minister who is accountable, it will be even harder to settle such conflicts.
What is the purpose of the Reform Party's amendment? It may simply be a matter of reducing costs. However, we have to make sure that it is indeed the case and that we are not in fact killing investments. If we come to the conclusion that there is no need for
a labour minister, we will also conclude that this is not an important sector.
There may another reason behind this amendment. Perhaps the Reform Party realized that-and the government is partly to blame for that-after the new human resources development minister took office, the first person appointed as labour minister was someone who was not a cabinet member. That person was to be responsible for the referendum issue, and we had the impression that the government had created this position strictly to allow her to come on board.
This left a very negative impression. That person has since been replaced. It goes without saying that, during the months when she was in charge of the labour portfolio, the former minister spent most of her time working on the referendum. Several issues that should have been taken care of were left untouched, and it may be that the Reform Party feels that the same situation could happen over and over again, and that we will never have someone who will put all his energy into dealing with this issue.
I feel that we will be better able to solve the issue by working in this House, asking questions and criticizing the labour minister's performance. If, in fact, the current minister is spending the bulk of his time on political organizing because he is the minister responsible for electoral organization in Quebec for the Liberal Party of Canada, then we will be able to judge whether he has devoted more time to the political organization of his party than to workers, who will have to look at his performance and see whether he has been effective.
Not just workers, but employers as well, because we are increasingly realizing that for Canada and Quebec to be competitive, it is important that there be more joint action, more pooling of ideas with respect to objectives in order to be able to secure a good position on world markets and keep up with the competition.
For these reasons, it seems to me that the Reform Party amendment, however good the intentions behind it, does not correspond to the needs of Quebec and of Canada because we need a labour minister, and in the short term, we need a reform of the labour code and new anti-scab legislation.