Madam Speaker, for some members in the House today this vote will be very easy; it will be just a matter of coming in and doing it. For other members in the House today this vote is going to be much more difficult and that is on both sides of the issue.
The one thing that does unite all members, at least I pray it does, is that all Canadians share a bedrock value and do not discriminate against one another. It is our shared values that at least give me hope that our country and our legislatures including this one will fumble on into the future and things will turn out just fine, perhaps even in spite of us.
As my colleague from Rosedale just mentioned, today we are privileged to be speaking to a very important consideration that strikes at the heart of the deepest convictions and personal values of many people. These should not be taken lightly.
When I spoke earlier I mentioned my friendship with the member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve which I enjoy and value very much. This friendship might seem passing strange, the Bloc member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve who is gay and proud of it, and myself, a member of the Reform Party from Edmonton Southwest neither of whom could speak each other's language very well when we arrived at this place, and I still cannot. The thought of voting against a measure that would cause him pain hurts me. I do not want to do it because I would never vote in favour of a measure that in my view would add to discrimination against any human being.
All of us in the Chamber if not in our immediate family as is my case, have members of our extended family who are gay. It is a fact of life and something we cannot pretend does not happen. None of us would want to see persons whom we love and our friends discriminated against for any reason.
I concur with the member for Rosedale when he mentioned that people who would throw out the red herring of pedophilia are not bringing a measure of dignity or worth to this debate. Pedophilia is a criminal offence that has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Pedophiles can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
As well, if we were to rank a threat to the family, certainly amending the Canadian Human Rights Act to include sexual orientation would not rank as high as tax policy. The tax policy is a far greater threat and far more damaging to the traditional family than adding the term sexual orientation.
Why then would I speak against the motion? I do not think that by adding the two words sexual orientation to the Canadian Human Rights Act will change anything. It will not change discrimination against gay persons one iota.
If I felt there was any evidence to support the notion that by amending the Canadian Human Rights Act to add those two words would somehow magically change the Canadian populace so that there would be no more discrimination against gays or anyone else, then I would vote for it in a minute. But it will not. All that will possibly change that is education and enlightenment.
Members who have spoken expressed concerns saying that the enhanced dignity of gay people would be achieved through amending the human rights act are already there. As a matter of fact, the Canadian Human Rights Act is particularly eloquent in its defence and the statement of values that we as Canadians share:
The purpose of this Act is to extend the laws in Canada to give effect, within the purview of matters coming within the legislative authority of Parliament, to the principle that every individual should have an equal opportunity with other individuals to make for himself or herself, the life that he or she is able and wishes to have, consistent with his or her duties and obligations as a member of society, without being hindered in or prevented from doing so by discriminatory practices-
That is, at least in my opinion, an eloquent statement of values that virtually every Canadian can share.
Then regrettably, again in my opinion, we add a list:
-based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, marital status, family status, disability or conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted.
Now we want to add sexual orientation.
The statement of values that preceded the list is of such magnitude and beauty that if we could somehow imbue Canadians from coast to coast with those values as an obligation and right of citizenship, none of us ever should fear being discriminated against. As citizens we would know that we have an obligation not
to discriminate against anyone for any reason. Then we would not be quibbling over whether a particular group is on or off the list. It is not the values that some Canadians have a problem with, it is the notion of a list. There is the concern that having made the list, this will then evolve into affirmative action.
We went through an affirmative action debate recently and another debate that had to do with hate crimes, Bill C-41. In that bill crimes were defined as worse and subject to more severe penalties if they were committed against persons identified on a list. That list included sexual orientation.
The net result is that if someone is lying in a ditch with a cracked skull it is a more serious crime if the person happens to be one of the people on the list than it is if a person is not on the list. That is absolutely preposterous.
This brings us to this bill. By amending the human rights act to include sexual orientation are we doing the same injustice to Canadians by suggesting that somehow we have to have a list about whom it is wrong to discriminate against?
It is the act of discrimination that is wrong. It is not determined to be wrong by whom the discrimination is against. It is every bit as wrong to discriminate against a person that is gay, a female, a person of colour or religion as a white male. Discrimination is discrimination.
If we did not have a list how would we go about having recourse if someone is discriminated against? If we did not codify what is right or wrong as we have been doing through the charter of rights and freedoms, but had a sense of what is right and wrong through our common law heritage, where would that put persons that are discriminated against? How would there be recourse and wrongs be righted?
That is the problem, the nub of the question. By adding the term sexual orientation to the Canadian Human Rights Act that is not going to be addressed. Nothing is going to change as a result of the change. We are going to be in exactly the same situation tomorrow as we are today, not one bit further ahead.
How do people who have been discriminated against find justice under the current system? A complaint is filed with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. What happens then? Well, you grow old, that is what happens. It might take three years or more before anything happens and justice delayed is justice denied.
If someone is discriminated against in employment or for any other reason, it is no different than from stealing from that person. If you steal a person's potential and future that is the same as taking money from their pocket.
We need all Canadians to share a common value that we do not discriminate one against another and that common value should be clearly understand and shared on a federal, provincial, municipal and corporate level. As the member for Rosedale said earlier, corporate Canada is light years ahead of public Canada as far as its relations with its work force is concerned. This is an absolute non-issue as far as the vast majority of Canadian business is concerned.
How do people who have been discriminated against get recourse? It would seem to me that it would be worthwhile if we could contemplate a situation whereby a person having been discriminated against would be able to go to a tribunal or a justice of the peace or some such body that greater minds than mine would determine, and make his or her case that he or she has been discriminated against. By convincing that body in short order that the person has a case, the person who has been discriminated against should be able to sue then and there. The benefit of that would be to bring community values into play.
For example, in Alberta there was a recent case everyone should know about of a gay person who was teaching at King's College, a religious institution. When he came out of the closet he was fired. He complained to the human rights commission in Alberta. His case was not supported.
On the surface this would seem to be a pretty clear cut case of a person being discriminated against because of his sexual orientation. However, I put to the House that in exactly the same situation, if that person had been working and teaching at the University of Alberta, which is a public institution, not a religious institution, then that person would not have been contravening the basic precepts of the institution for which he was working, and exactly the same jury in exactly the same circumstance would have found for him.
Common sense does come into play in the interpersonal relationships of people in the country. If we find the outcome of every single circumstance that we as citizens find ourselves in is determined because it has been codified and is written in law, then we will be removing the opportunity for the people to have their own community standards and community values.
That is not to say we would find ourselves in a country of patchwork where the strongest would survive here and the strongest would survive there. That is not my point at all. I am saying that there are two sides to every issue. Most Canadians live and let live and will look for reasons and ways to accommodate each other.
As we progress more and more into the realm of codifying relationships, the opportunity for discourse and settling things is taken away. This brings resentment and fuels reverse discrimination. To a large degree that is why affirmative action has been
discredited in the United States and is being reversed at exactly the same time we are implementing it here in Canada.
I had occasion to speak about just this. It has troubled me for quite some time. I have agonized over my approach, how I would speak to it and the position I would bring to this debate. A couple of weekends ago I had coffee with a friend in Minnesota who is gay. He told me that he almost ran off the road driving past the Humphreydome, the home of the Minnesota Vikings. On the billboard which flashed a sign to buy tickets, there was a slogan "remember gay pride week next week".
He said he could not believe it. He drove around the block to see if he was really seeing that sign, but there it was. He said that even 10 years ago he could not have visualized the remotest possibility of seeing a sign like that.
His life has not been made easy by the fact that he is gay. I asked him: "Are you gay because you want to be gay or are you gay because that is the way you were born?" His response was: "Why would anybody in their right mind choose a lifestyle like mine? Why would anybody go through the same grief I have gone through in my life, in family, in job, in housing and in everything people have talked about?" However, he said the wrong way to change this is by codifying or driving it through legislation. The right way to change things is through education and enlightenment.
That is the reason, although I am troubled, I feel confident that when I vote against this measure I will not be voting against people who are gay. I will be voting in the greater light by saying we must speak to the root problems of discrimination, not the surface symptoms.
I know the people in my constituency are divided on the issue. I know they are not divided on the notion of extending benefits to people because of their sexual orientation. I know people in my constituency are very concerned that I do the right thing and that I represent them in a way they would feel comfortable with and in a way they would be proud of. In this instance I know I am representing not just the people who voted for me but all the people of my constituency.
I am very conscious that the country is divided on this issue. Parliament is divided on this issue. It is a very difficult decision for many of us.