House of Commons Hansard #46 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was jobs.

Topics

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, on the contrary. The member's timing is perfect. I know that, in a speech she will be making soon, the hon. member for Québec will have the opportunity to give him this information. It is true that the majority of unsure part time jobs-70 per cent-are held by women, but some are also held by young people. What should be remembered is that, in theory, they will be able to qualify, but in practice, exactly the opposite will happen.

I will explain to the member who usually understands things pretty well. This is what will happen. It is true that some employers did as the hon. member said, but there will be a change of behaviour on their part. Before, they did not pay premiums for employees who worked 15 hours or less. Now that they will have to pay premiums, what will happen? They will prefer making permanent employees work overtime instead of paying premiums.

It must be remembered that the bill is a bit like Robin Hood in reverse. This bill lowers the ceiling of insurable earnings from $42,380 to $39,000, so that employers will be inclined to ask those employees to work overtime and there will be less work for part time employees. This is the opposite of what was intended.

As for the statistics, according to projections made by a number of experts in the field, 25 per cent of women working part time for more than 15 hours per week will be dropped from the system because the number of hours is being raised. In order to qualify, a person in my region would now have to work 17 hours and a half per week for 26 weeks. Before, the number of hours required was much less.

People are being eliminated. At least 25 per cent of people are going to be dropped from the system. Only an additional 5 per cent will be covered. The difference then is minus 20 per cent. This are real figures, these are the department's figures. These are not made-up figures, they are not juggled up. These are the figures from the department.

If this bill is so good, how is it that, last Sunday, the Fédération des femmes du Québec, said-after a thorough study-that it was discriminating against women and young people? They even wondered if they should not go to court to condemn the discriminatory nature of this legislation, given that the two groups most affected by these changes are the women and young people.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, although I was born in the Saguenay region, I am the member for Québec. I am happy to be able to express my views on this bill again today. I can say that I am happy to be able to express my views on this bill, but I am not so happy about what this government is getting ready to vote on.

Let me tell you why I am not so happy about this bill. This bill will penalize a great many people in my riding. I am thinking, for example, of the artists, the women and the people in my riding who are currently unemployed. Some of the people in my riding live below the poverty line; in some parts of my riding, 50 per cent of the population live below the poverty line.

So I can say that artists and seasonal workers in my riding, including those working in the tourist industry, will be penalized by this bill.

I am also thinking of the young people and women in my riding. I know that there are many single mothers and young people in my riding who are currently unemployed.

This bill also creates overlap and duplication, despite the fine promises in the throne speech. As recently as yesterday, Mr. Chrétien, the Prime Minister said that he might take steps to end federal encroachment in areas of provincial jurisdiction. More fine promises. They made a commitment in the throne speech, but they do not even have the courage to do so in a bill like the one now under consideration.

I am not happy either about the criteria being tightened. Yet, the government is able to keep $5 billion in the UI fund, even though it no longer pays a single penny into it.

I think this is a bad bill that will penalize a lot of people. It does not take into consideration the labour market reality, the economic situation and the fact that jobs are precarious. This bill also completely disregards the Quebec people's desire to repatriate manpower training.

According to a SONDAGEM survey just released 75 per cent of the people want Quebec to administer the unemployment insurance program. Seventy per cent were of the opinion that occupational training should also come under provincial jurisdiction. That is not coming from us, but from the people, who happen to think like us. This government does not respect the wishes of Quebecers.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

Oh, oh.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Neither do you, my hon. friend opposite. But when you speak, I listen to what you have to say.

This is a bad bill because it will make the number of welfare recipients swell in Quebec and perhaps in Canada as well. This bill does not take this reality into account. In fact, the President of the Treasury Board boasted that, when the Quebec government brought its budget down, the federal government would be able to say that

only the Canadian government can provide the required social safety net.

That is what makes me say that the number of welfare recipients in Quebec will swell as a result of this bill. Who will bear the brunt of this? The provinces of course, and Quebec in particular. Especially since cuts have been made in the Canada social transfer as well. Some may have forgotten, but I will repeat it for the benefit of those listening to what I have to say, cuts to the Canada social transfer will also reduce funding for welfare.

This is a bad bill because it will drive people down poverty lane even faster than before. It is a punitive bill, penalizing the unemployed. They are being made to pay for the fact that jobs are precarious. I will tell you why in a moment.

What a shame that I do not have more than ten minutes to speak on this bill, because many people will be penalized by a great many aspects of this bill.

At the same time, the bill gives presents to certain people: employers and those employees who hold a job and earn more than $39,000. These employees will no longer have to pay premiums, which would otherwise amount to $900 million. What impact will this measure have? Employees earning $39,000 will work overtime because no employer will want to hire part time or occasional employees for whom they would have to pay employer contributions to the UI fund. This is therefore a bad bill.

I am going to tell you why it is a bad bill. It is bad because 77 per cent of women have part time jobs and 31 per cent of these jobs are held by women working fewer than 15 hours. We know that, with this bill, those working fewer than 15 hours will have to pay premiums, but will not be able to qualify.

It is a well known fact that one way of governing is to go after the public for more money. It is therefore a bad bill because women earn $25,000 and less. It is a bad bill because they will double their hours of work and those working part time will not be able to qualify.

When women who have children or leave the labour market for a prolonged period want to return on a part time basis, they still have to put in much more time and will still not be able to qualify.

Although the Secretary of State for the Status of Women has told us that this is an equitable and inclusive bill, the tightening of criteria leads us to expect the contrary. Fewer people will qualify, and they will receive much less money and many fewer weeks of benefits.

A UN rapporteur said that violence is a social problem rooted in the inequality between the sexes. I bring this to your attention today because I know that the government has boasted that it has a strategic plan on equality between the sexes and that this plan will be implemented in all departments. I think that they have got off to a bad start. The Minister of Human Resources Development is passing a bill that will run counter to the economic interests of women.

I also wanted to point out that artists in my riding will suffer. In a letter addressed to this same Minister of Human Resources Development, the Conseil de la culture de Québec said that it was a bad bill because artists' work is seasonal and this will aggravate their economic conditions. There will therefore be an important loss of income for dancers, given the contractual and seasonal nature of their work.

Why? For three reasons: eligibility is based on the number of hours worked; the length of the benefit period is linked to the weeks immediately preceding the last week worked; and an intensity rule has been added. We know that when women and seasonal workers, including artists and people working in the tourist industry, apply repeatedly for unemployment insurance, because of the precarious nature of their employment, they will lose 1 per cent a year over five years.

If this is a good bill, why did 40,000 people sign a petition condemning it? Why did the Fédération des femmes du Québec and other groups representing women in Canada condemn this bill? Why did 75 per cent of those who submitted briefs to the committee with suggestions for this minister and the people who are going to pass this bill today say they were against it?

It is a pity, and I hope that this government will pay the price one day.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Kenora—Rainy River Ontario

Liberal

Bob Nault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, I note with interest that the hon. member for Quebec does not mention in her remarks that part II of the bill lays out very clearly the five major employment tools that will be used with the consent of the provinces, in this case the province of Quebec.

I want to ask her a very specific question relating to seasonal workers and part time workers. The member has said over and over again that part time workers are worse off.

Under this bill, some 18,000 people in Quebec who fall outside the old UI system will now be eligible for unemployment insurance under this system. For the first time in the history of this program these people will qualify because they are part timers. They are women, students and low income Canadians. If a person is working part time, they are not making a whole lot of money. These folks are eligible.

Why does the member continue to say that this bill excludes people under the system when the facts show that 18,000 Quebecers will benefit, going to the hourly based system from the week system.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

Mr. Speaker, I see that my colleague, who is preparing to vote in favour of this bad bill, has not got a very accurate handle on the reality of part time work. Let me take the example of someone who holds down two part time jobs in order to qualify and then finds this is no longer possible, because the hours do not suit, or because, if a woman, her household duties do not allow.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Nault Liberal Kenora—Rainy River, ON

That's the best you can do?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christiane Gagnon Bloc Québec, QC

You asked me a question and I am going to answer, but listen. I will speak up a bit. These people will not be able to qualify because they will have dropped one of their two jobs. That is the McJob syndrome. It is quite obvious that the hon. member has a full time job.

Let me tell you that a number of people in Quebec and, I am happy to say, elsewhere in Canada have objected to this bill, specifically as it relates to part time workers. It is obvious that the hon. member has not had to live with such working conditions on a daily basis, and his contempt and lack of understanding are equally obvious.

When 75 per cent of people have come out against this bill, I think some of them must be right. Therefore-

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Unfortunately, the hon. member's time is up.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, begging your pardon, but my colleague from Québec has not had her ten minutes, for I stopped at ten minutes to the hour. Moreover, and I do not know if you will accept this argument, she was constantly heckled by the parliamentary secretary, who showed his contempt for the unemployed, the victims of unemployment.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Unfortunately, the time was already several minutes past the limit. If the House is unanimous in extending her time, that can be done, but it is the unfortunate duty of the Speaker to cut people off from time to time. I have not done the calculation, but I believe enough time has been allowed for asking and responding to the question.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Pierrefonds—Dollard Québec

Liberal

Bernard Patry LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Speaker, this debate is proving to be about how the different parties in the House see the future.

It shows this government is putting even more tools in place to help Canadians get the jobs of today's economy as part of its commitment to a productive jobs strategy.

It shows we have found an appropriate middle course in this key labour market area between the unrealistic claims of the official opposition, and the narrow policies of the third party.

It shows this government is committed to a respect for, and partnerships with, other governments that will work far better than the old top-down solutions. We are determined to work with others to do more to put unemployed people back to work.

In my comments in this debate, I want to focus on what these factors mean in Quebec. There are two main issues: training and employment benefits and measures. I will address both.

The federal government understands that its strategy to foster economic growth and job creation depends on having a highly skilled, mobile and adaptable workforce. Employment insurance provides, through partnership with provinces and the private sector, a range of active employment measures to help unemployed Canadians find and keep work.

We want them to have access to effective re-employment measures-ones that get people jobs quickly. Ones that reduce future demands on income benefits under employment insurance.

The goal is to provide practical, proven measures that will help Canadians get back to work quickly, and keep working. The old system is not good enough in today's economy. Quebec shares these interests. On November 27, 1995, the Prime Minister stated our intention with complete clarity.

Let me remind the House of his words when he spoke about employment insurance. "The Government of Canada will propose an approach that respects provincial jurisdiction and responsibilities in the fields of education and labour market training. Accordingly, the government of Canada will withdraw from labour market training, apprenticeship programs, co-operative education programs and workplace based training. It will no longer purchase training courses, either directly or indirectly, from provincial establishments, either public or private".

Our government repeated this commitment in the throne speech of February 27. It promised once more that it would gradually withdraw from this sector within three years, so that there will be a smooth transition for all those involved. I fact, we will bring that process to a conclusion much sooner if this is what the provinces want.

This was not a hollow commitment. It is backed up by the approach to active employment benefits in Bill C-12. To hear some hon. members talk, one would think they still do not know this. One would think they had not read the bill. Let me help them.

For example, this bill expressly limits the federal capacity to implement the skills loans and grants employment benefits to those provinces in which that government agrees. If Quebec says no, then there would be no such activity for employment insurance clients in Quebec.

Part II of Bill C-12 also commits the government of Canada to work in concert with Quebec and other provincial governments on the design, implementation and evaluation of employment measures for employment insurance clients. Those measures include wage subsidies, earnings supplements, self employment assistance and job creation partnerships. We want to develop flexible new arrangements for the delivery of employment benefits.

That flexibility extends to the use of provincial programs to assist employment insurance clients. What does this mean? Quite simply, it means that the Quebec government could deliver any or all of these employment benefits to employment insurance clients. It could do so through its own existing programs, with support from the federal government, as long as those programs meet the objectives set out in part II of this bill and are broadly similar to the measures outlined in the legislation.

Federal guidelines will be followed in the deveopment and implementation of the employment measures: harmonization of programs to prevent overlap and duplication, programs that reduce dependency on income benefits, and emphasis on personal responsibility, co-operation and partnership, flexibility to allow local decision-making, and a framework for evaluating results.

The key, of course, is results, that is getting Canadians back to work quickly.

We believe that our approach based on partnership with provinces will ensure that every dollar spent, is spent in a way that is linked to local labour market priorities. We believe it will ensure value for the money we spend to help our clients improve their employability.

In Quebec, as elsewhere, we are determined to translate these commitments and objectives into results. This government is doing so by negotiating a series of labour market agreements with provincial governments. These arrangements could vary from province to province to meet local circumstances and needs.

We are putting turf wars behind us-and concentrating on getting Canadians back to work. And, let us be very clear about this, the federal government has responsibilities. It cannot ignore them.

It has a responsibility to the millions of workers and employers accross Canada who fund the employment insurance program and who share the risks of unemployment in a way that works for Quebecers' advantage.

It has a responsibility to manage this program in the best interests of the Canadian economy and a labour market with national elements and needs. It has a responsibility to this House to be able to track and provide it the information it needs on activities under this act.

It has a responsibility to ensure that every dollar that is earmarked for the employment benefits of employment insurance clients is used for precisely that purpose and used effectively.

In general, the conditions that I have mentioned are simply ones that recognize that EI contributors from across this country are entitled to expect results and to get their money's worth.

New agreements would ensure more effective help for the unemployed, reduce overlap and duplication and promote coherence and harmonization in federal and provincial programs.

Let me quote Mr. Ghislain Dufour on this issue: "In this regard, our federation of employers welcomes the reform proposals to harmonize federal and provincial programs and to allow provinces to make administrative arrangements with the federal government in order to administer these programs fully".

Mr. Dufour recognizes this is a good opportunity for both levels of government. Part II respects the legitimate constitutional jurisdictions of each government, and is fair and reasonable.

The door is open to an agreement that can move both governments closer to our shared goal of better employment opportunities for people in Quebec. Bill C-12 will put that process fully in motion. I urge the members of the official opposition to support this opportunity.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my colleague's speech with interest and surprise, especially since, this morning, the daily Le Devoir published the results of a poll on Quebecers' opinion of the unemployment insurance reform.

Let us look at a few results. The first is that 75 per cent of Quebecers support moving the unemployment insurance program to Quebec. Those opposing the reform account for 59.8 per cent; those in favour, 27.5 per cent. Some 79 per cent of Quebecers believe the reform will benefit the government first. The reduction in benefits to the unemployed is opposed by 72.3 per cent of people, and the reduction in the benefits entitlement period is opposed by 66 per cent.

How can the member ask the opposition to support the government's motion, when it is very obvious that it goes totally against the grain of all the people of Quebec? There is a clear majority. Furthermore, 73 per cent of people have heard about the reform.

We cannot assume today that this is the opinion of professional agitators. We cannot assume either that we are talking about experts in negotiations or union people. This is the public opinion of Quebecers in general, who are concerned about this issue, who have analyzed the reform, who have looked into the possible effects of the reform, who have seen that the reform will penalize seasonal workers and who are totally opposed to it.

Had the same poll been taken in the maritime provinces, I think that the Liberal members who are all set to vote for this bill would see the major impact it will have on the results of the next election. All the members from the maritimes who got elected on a platform of "jobs, jobs, jobs" and who, today, will vote in favour of this bill will come up against the same kind of disapproval on the part of their voters as the one clearly identified in the poll taken in Quebec.

That being so, I would like the hon. member to tell us why we should implement a reform that will only have adverse consequences, resulting in drastic changes to regional economies, when no buffers have been put in place. There are no measures designed to boost the economy and to diversify regional economies. It is a bit like this guy who drove an old car that burned much more oil than it should have and decided to stop adding oil in the motor instead of having the motor fixed. This is exactly what will happen to regional economies with this bill.

I would like the hon. member to tell us what good he feels will come from this reform that all Quebecers have rejected?

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. He may surprised to learn that I am among the 75 per cent of Quebecers asking that responsibility over manpower training be handed over to Quebec. I am proud to be one of them and proud as well of this employment bill. That is why I urge opposition members to vote for this bill.

Regarding manpower training, that is exactly what the federal government intends to do within the next three years, as indicated in part II of Bill C-12. If the Quebec government wants these powers to be repatriated even faster, I submit that it should enter into negotiations with the Government of Canada, and I am sure that we will agree to negotiate and that these negotiations will certainly be carried out in good faith.

Business Of The HouseGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I understand there has been consultation and consensus among the parties for the following motion. I move:

That, when the House adjourns on Wednesday, June 5, 1996 it shall stand adjourned until Monday, June 10, 1996;

That, on Monday, June 3, 1996 and Tuesday, June 4, 1996 the House shall continue to sit until 9.30 p.m. for the purpose of considering Government Orders, and that proceedings pursuant to Standing Order 38 shall be taken up at 9:30 p.m.;

That, Wednesday, June 5, 1996 shall be deemed to be the day on which a motion may be proposed pursuant to Standing Order 27;

That, on Tuesday, June 11, 1996 the House shall not meet at 10 a.m., but shall meet 2:00 p.m. and Routine Proceedings shall take place following oral questions;

That, on the morning of June 11, 1996 the president of the United States of Mexico may address a meeting of the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons in the Chamber of the House of Commons;

That, such address and all customary introductory and related remarks shall be printed as an appendix to the House of Commons Debates for that day and form part of the records of this House, and;

That the media recording and transmission of the said proceedings be authorized according to House of Commons guidelines.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

May 14th, 1996 / 4:10 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That in relation to its study of circumpolar co-operation, eight (8) members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade be authorized to travel to Whitehorse, Inuvik, Tuktoyaktuk, Cambridge Bay, Yellowknife, Edmonton and Calgary from May 26 to 31, 1996; and that seven (7) members plus one associate member of the committee be authorized to travel to Kuujjuaq, Iqaluit, Cape Dorset, Resolute, Montreal and Quebec City from May 27 to 31, 1996 for the purpose of conducting meetings and site visits and that the necessary staff of the Commons and Library of Parliament do accompany the committee.

(Motion agreed to.)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-12, an act respecting employment insurance in Canada, be read the third time and passed.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Cape Breton Highlands—Canso Nova Scotia

Liberal

Francis Leblanc LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak on third reading of this important legislation. I begin by congratulating both the current and former ministers of human resources development and their parliamentary secretaries for bringing this legislation forth and for steering it through the House.

I congratulate the officials in the Department of Human Resources Development for preparing such detailed impact analysis and explanations of these measures. I also commend the members of the parliamentary committee which reviewed the legislation as well as those who participated in the social security review the committee carried out in 1994 for their sustained hard work in developing these reforms.

As far as opposition members are concerned, I would like to acknowledge the contribution of Bloc Quebecois members, especially the hon. member for Mercier, the hon. member for Lévis and the hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup. While they opposed this bill, they played their role as opposition members with diligence and professionalism, thereby contributing to the enhancement of the reforms in question.

I want to mention as well the exceptional work of the members from Fredericton-York-Sunbury, Etobicoke-Lakeshore, Halifax West and Malpeque whose amendments to Bill C-12 dealing with the fixed divisor, the intensity rule and the problem of discontinuous weeks have greatly improved the bill and the new employment insurance system.

When the former minister of human resources development back in January 1994 unveiled the government's intention to proceed with a comprehensive review of Canada's social security system no one expected it would be easy to achieve these reforms. It would have been difficult at any time but all the more difficult when the fiscal climate required that fewer, not more, resources were available to put into the revamped social programs.

This made the choices more difficult but the need to get the programs right and the need for reform all the more imperative, especially in view of the dramatically changed situation that has taken place in Canada since many of these reforms of the program were put in place.

Central to the reform agenda was the need to modernize and renew the unemployment insurance system. Since it was introduced in 1940 as a system of short term protection against job loss, UI has evolved to become the central pillar of Canada's social security system and for many people in seasonal industries in Canada a regular component of their family income.

Unfortunately there has also been growing evidence that UI has become an obstacle to job creation. Not only has the level of premiums needed to finance UI benefits been a drag on small businesses' ability to create jobs, but the level of benefits have created distortions in the economies of communities most in need of job growth.

Observers have argued that UI has hindered mobility, encouraged excessive patterns of short term jobs followed by UI at the expense of more stable employment relationships and has discouraged young people from acquiring the skills they need to function effectively in the changing economy.

Yet while there has been much evidence provided to demonstrate the UI program has inhibited job creation and has pointed to the direction for reform, it is much harder to prove in advance that altering the program will lead to the jobs the people dependent on UI want. This has always been the dilemma facing UI reform. Faced with this dilemma, the government's approach to reform has been sound. The changes in Bill C-12 are designed first and foremost to foster a more supportive climate for job creation.

The new employment insurance system recognizes there are great variations in the ability of regions in Canada to create jobs. Hence it does not try to impose a uniformed system on all Canadians.

Instead of generating savings by restricting access to the program, as the government might have done, the EI system broadens access to the program. Not only will more people be covered under EI than under UI, they will have access to a range of income and employment support available even beyond the duration of their benefits. This is because of first hour coverage and that hours replace weeks as the basis for determining eligibility for EI benefits.

With an hourly based system, many part time workers who were unable to qualify under the old system will be able to earn the right to draw EI benefits. As well, it will be easier for seasonal workers who often work long hours during a short period of time to qualify for EI benefits.

It will not be possible to get the same level of benefits with the minimum amount of work to qualify under EI as it has been under UI. Maximum benefit levels will be lower under the new system. However, the new system protects those on lower incomes who are

unemployed through a number of measures, including the family income supplement which will guarantee that individuals who are unemployed can received up to 80 per cent of their earnings replaced through the new system.

As well, the amendments to the initial employment insurance legislation in committee have improved the fairness in this system. For example, the amendments dealing with the fixed divisor and the problem of discontinuous weeks now changes the method of calculating the level of benefits in order to minimize the adverse effects of the problem of discontinuous work in terms of the level of benefits.

The amendments proposed to deal with the decline in benefits under the intensity rule also minimized the impact of that aspect of the program to those on higher incomes by protecting those who fall under the family income threshold stipulated by the program.

The monitoring function, which is an essential feature of the implementation of this legislation, will ensure the government follows very carefully the progress of implementation of this reform and also that we monitor carefully how the impact of these changes will affect those Canadians, particularly those in high unemployment areas. The central purpose of the legislation is to foster a job creation climate, which is what we want to see as a result of the implementation of these reforms.

Many Canadians, including those most closely associated with this debate, are tired of reform. They want stability in these programs. They want this talk of reform to stop. They want to get on with their lives. They want to think of something else. They hope that as this bill heads to the Senate we are nearing the beginning of the end.

I share their fatigue but I do not believe we can stop yet. We still have a lot more work to do when it comes to reshaping Canada's social security system for the 21st century. We are not at the beginning of the end, to quote Churchill, we are more like at the end of the beginning.

The employment insurance system which Bill C-12 describes is an important start toward creating a new system for the 21st century. It has some very important features to it which represent a significant improvement over the existing program, but I still prefer to see it as an important start and not as the final word on this program.

This may seem premature since Bill C-12 is not even passed yet. However, in the time that remains I want to speak about the future and what is next on this agenda.

No one doubts we are living in an era of profound social and economic change and uncertainty. Peter Drucker calls it the age of social transformation. The consequences of the information revolution have penetrated every facet of our lives and in a few short years have dramatically altered the pace and depth of change. Nowhere is the upheaval more pronounced than in the world of work.

Whether one is a qualified pessimist such as Jeremy Riffkin, who predicts massive unemployment and growing income inequality because of the displacement of workers due to this profound change, or whether one is a qualified optimist such as William Bridges, who sees opportunities for growth, creativity and freedom in the new post-job economy, one thing seems clear about the future. The requirements for success in the world of work as we approach the 21st century are different than they have been for the preceding one.

Individuals have to be flexible, willing to make lifelong learning a fact of life, willing to accept a greater degree of instability and uncertainty in terms of their jobs and be much more innovative and entrepreneurial. These are the characteristics that make the difference.

The employment insurance system must do more than simply provide income protection against job loss. It must be a support to individual Canadians.

Under the unemployment insurance system which was developed in the 1940s the reality of the world of work was much different. Unemployment insurance was meant to provide basic short term support to individuals waiting for their temporary unemployment to change, knowing their skills were essentially the ones they would need for the rest of their lives.

The new world of work is much more complicated. The new employment insurance system has to be designed to respond to the growing changes taking place in Canada if it is to work with other policies of the government to create a strong economy and to support individuals in that economy.

Employment insurance represents an important advance in the thinking of the support of the unemployed. Increasingly, individuals need support to keep them moving through a series of changing job situations. New skills, attitudes and flexibility need to be acquired. These are the realities of the world in which we live, realities we as a government must find a system which will enable individuals to produce.

UI and now EI is a national program. It should remain a national program. Reforming this pillar of Canada's social security system should not be seen, as it has too often been, purely in defensive terms, but as a fundamental positive exercise in nation building.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his time has expired.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for Cape Breton Highlands-Canso for his good words for committee members. I think that we did do some very serious work while conducting hearings across Canada.

My first question for the hon. member is this: Are the results we see today in this bill in line with what we heard at those hearings?

Does having an intensity rule that will reduce seasonal workers' benefits among the wishes expressed during those consultations? Did any of the people who testified say anything to that effect? Did the committee on seasonal workers, which was set up by the minister, not tell us that seasonal workers were in no way responsible for the negative impact on their jobs, that it was not their decision to be unemployed, that there were simply no jobs available? I would like the hon. member to answer these questions.

Employment Insurance ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Leblanc Liberal Cape Breton Highlands—Canso, NS

Mr. Speaker, even though the bill does not necessarily reflect all the recommendations heard by the parliamentary committee while conducting hearings across Canada, I can say that the restructuring of this program was a basic desire expressed by the witnesses we heard.

Moreover, one of the things we heard-and this is a very important contribution the committee made to this debate-is that, in any UI reform, people would prefer that the government broaden coverage and ensure that more people have access to the program, rather than restrict access and increase benefits.

I must conclude, but there are many other lessons that we could have taught the committee and to which I could refer to in describing this bill, but I think the hon. member has a good idea of what I mean.

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Reform

Charlie Penson Reform Peace River, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to be sharing my time today with the member for-

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The Deputy Speaker

Excuse me. I am sorry, I thought the member was getting up on questions and comments.

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An hon. member

Debate.

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The Deputy Speaker

Debate only. The two deputies could have had more time in that case.