House of Commons Hansard #47 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was safety.

Topics

Question Passed As Order For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Reform

Garry Breitkreuz Reform Yorkton—Melville, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to ask the government House leader when I can expect to receive answers to my three questions on the Order Paper, Nos. 2, 3 and 4. These questions first appeared on the Order Paper in the second session of the 35th Parliament on February 27, 1996. I requested an answer from the government within 45 days. As of today, 79 days have passed.

Question Passed As Order For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

My dear colleague, subject to being corrected I believe that these answers were tabled today. Is that correct?

Question Passed As Order For ReturnRoutine Proceedings

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Zed Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Mr. Speaker, I wish my colleague would take yes for an answer. The member will find that we tabled Question No. 3 today which I believe was the bulk of the member's concern. With regard to Questions Nos. 2 and 4, Question No. 2 is being finalized and Question No. 4 is close to being ready.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

May 15th, 1996 / 3:15 p.m.

Fundy Royal New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all Notices of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Motions For PapersRoutine Proceedings

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Scarborough East Ontario

Liberal

Doug Peters LiberalSecretary of State (International Financial Institutions)

moved that a ways and means motion to amend the Income Tax Act, the Excise Act, the Excise Tax Act, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Act, the Old Age Security Act and the Canada Shipping Act, laid upon the table on Thursday, March 28, be concurred in.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen.

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Ways And MeansGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare the motion carried.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-20, an act respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services as reported (with amendments) from the committee.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

The Speaker

There are 26 motions in amendment standing on the Notice Paper for the report stage of Bill C-20, an act respecting the commercialization of civil air navigation services.

The motions will be grouped for debate as follows:

Group No. 1: Motions Nos. 1, 2 and 3.

Group No. 2: Motions Nos. 4 to 12 and 16 to 24.

Group No. 3: Motions Nos. 13 and 14.

Group No. 4: Motion No. 15.

Group No. 5: Motions Nos. 25 and 26.

The voting patterns for the motions within each group are available at the Table. The Chair will remind the House of each pattern at the time of voting.

I shall now propose Motions No. 1, 2 and 3 to the House.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-20, in the Preamble, be amended by replacing line 1, on page 1, with the following:

"WHEREAS NAV CANADA is a corporation incorporated on May 26, 1995 under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act; and

WHEREAS the safety of passengers, personnel, air carriers and the public has priority over all other considerations in the business decisions taken by NAV CANADA;

THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and".

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-20, in the Preamble, be amended by replacing line 1, on page 1, with the following:

"WHEREAS NAV CANADA is a corporation incorporated on May 26, 1995 under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act; and

WHEREAS NAV CANADA is committed to ensuring equality of opportunity for small and large carriers in establishing its charges and, in particular, in achieving a balanced representation of small and large carriers on the Board of Directors of the Corporation;

THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and".

Motion No. 3

That Bill C-20, in the Preamble, be amended by replacing line 1, on page 1, with the following:

"WHEREAS NAV CANADA is a corporation incorporated on May 26, 1995 under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act; and

WHEREAS NAV CANADA recognizes that Canada is a country where air service to northern and remote regions is essential;

THEREFORE, Her Majesty, by and with the advice and".

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to participate in the debate, which is at the report stage but which is also at the second reading stage as the bill had been referred directly to committee. This bill is about the commercialization of civil air navigation services. Behind this bill is a commendable goal: trying to make air navigation services more efficient, more profitable, by reducing operating costs.

If the bill referred to this goal while recognizing that safety is paramount, the Bloc Quebecois, the official opposition, could support it. We are proposing a number of amendments, and some of the most important ones are in the first group.

What we really want is a preamble to the bill, which would be used as an interpretive clause for the whole bill and would ensure that safety is always paramount. Privatization or the establishment of a non-profit organization in charge of managing air navigation services, strikes a balance in a way.

We have gone from living in an era when everything was managed by the public sector to creating a non-profit organization that must become viable. Along the way, however, we forgot to set aviation safety criteria based on operational requirements in this area, in which errors can have disastrous consequences.

Yes, we must bring excessive costs under control, but without throwing the baby out with the bath water. We want to make sure that safety has priority over all other considerations and that is the purpose of our preamble. We hope the government will pay attention to our arguments.

There is another aspect we regard as important, as essential even, an aspect which, in our opinion, must be approved as an amendment if the bill is to be acceptable to Quebecers, to Canadians, to users and to those who operate the system: small carriers must be given an active role to play.

During consideration of the bill in committee, we realized that the board of directors of Nav Canada, on which will sit representatives of all air navigation stakeholders, did not include enough small carriers. So how will we decide in the future what to charge carriers for air navigation services? There are people who do not have enough of a say.

Among these is the Association québécoise des transporteurs aériens, which was unable to get a guaranteed seat on Nav Canada's board of directors. We all know the importance of this industry as far as the use of the French language in the future is concerned. This is an industry where there have been problems for several years. Today still, it is a daily battle for those working in this industry to ensure French is recognized.

The bill states that the Official Languages Act will apply to Nav Canada. Fine, but we feel that many other aspects of everyday use of French in air travel are insufficiently protected. The use of French is one thing, but there are also many economic considerations.

For example, there is a risk with a fee structure based only on criteria favouring large carriers, should it established. When the time will come for the board to decide on a pricing system, since the people sitting on the board are there to look after their own interests, naturally they will make sure that the fee structure selected is the one that penalizes them the least.

A decision that impacts only minimally on very large carriers may destroy small carriers.

Very small air navigation companies do not have very high profit margins. The fee structure could make the difference between a given operation being profitable or becoming unprofitable, spelling the death of small carriers in the medium term. This point was made to us in committee by many witnesses, especially those in the tourist transportation industry, such as outfitters and other small carriers operating on lines which are not major commercial lines. These lines are a source of income for them and constitute, among other things, an interesting business activity for remote communities.

The second thing we felt important to include in our preamble is the fact that there should be a balance between small and large carriers in Nav Canada's operations, thus eliminating the need to hold a debate to specifically guarantee a small carrier a seat on Nav Canada's board of directors. Our intention is that the preamble will create a moral obligation, a need for statutory interpretation whereby small carrier representatives will be able to take their cases to the board of directors and have their say.

The third subject covered in the proposed preamble, which we hope to see the government add to its bill, is northern and remote communities. It must be realized that, while the bill changes the air traffic control system and allows a non profit corporation to take over this system, it does not oblige the corporation to take the economic impact of its decisions on the regions into account.

For example, in the case of the airport in Mont-Joli, or any other regional airport with air navigation equipment, Nav Canada will have to decide, when trying to determine future equipment needs, whether to buy new equipment, and what to install for safety purposes at the airport.

Senior public servants told the committee that, under the bill, the corporation is under no obligation to take the economic impact of a regional airport into account. If equipment required to meet safety requirements represent a major investment in terms of the volume of traffic at the airport, the equipment might not be bought, thus reducing the impact of the airport and resulting, in the long term, in its closure.

Nothing is provided in this bill to allow those concerned by the region's economic development to express their views. Several other amendments will therefore be moved so that, when changes are anticipated, the regional community will have to be informed through the media and all other suitable means to ensure that decisions are not made without consideration of their impact on the region. Decisions must not be made without the knowledge of interested local parties, to ensure they do not lead to a crisis. This is the third element of our proposed preamble to the bill.

We could consider the bill to be acceptable if the government included these three points in a preamble, namely to consider safety as a paramount concern, to provide an adequate role for small carriers, to protect airports in northern and remote regions, and to guarantee that interested parties have a say when Nav Canada makes decisions regarding equipment in regional airports.

The system could probably be changed effectively if such elements were included to ensure an adequate balance regarding the issues of safety, regions and small carriers.

Under the current system, costs were somewhat out of control and the expected level of satisfaction was not necessarily met. There would now be a return to private activity.

The government must analyse the situation, find a balance and come up with a solution ensuring the paramountcy of safety. After all, safety is the primary responsibility of Nav Canada.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Hamilton West Ontario

Liberal

Stan Keyes LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport

Madam Speaker, it is a privilege to respond to the amendments the hon. member put to the House. A great deal of work has been done by the Standing Committee on Transport, which I had the privilege to chair in my previous incarnation.

In this situation we have witnessed an agreement that transfers Canada's air navigation system to the private sector. This is by no means an easy task with all the nuances and all the negotiations that must take place between the two sides for a move from essentially a crown corporation, a government entity, to a not for profit corporation. Imagine all the legalities involved in such an undertaking.

This change was made with a minimal number of bumps in the road. There was agreement on almost all the nuances that took place between both the federal government and the not for profit corporation, Nav Canada.

Nav Canada came to the federal government with this proposal. It was not that the federal government went out looking, but the proposal was made and it was a solid proposal. As I have just heard, the proposal was endorsed by the member opposite from the Bloc. We on this side of the House agreed with the hon. member when he said Bill C-20 is good legislation.

As with any legislation there is some discussion on the ability to see clearly each clause in a piece of legislation to ensure that each one of these clauses is accurate and does what is in the best interests of the travelling public and Canadians at large.

Priority number one for Transport Canada and for Nav Canada has been safety. The hon. member opposite raised three issues in the first group of amendments which I will speak to. The insertion in the preamble is in our opinion unnecessary. The legal effect of a preamble is to assist in the interpretation of other sections of legislation. The three issues dealt with in this motion by the hon. member, as well as Motions Nos. 2 and 3 which I will address separately, are specifically addressed within the legislation already. The value of the preamble is doubtful at best.

A preamble on safety is definitely unnecessary. For example, clause 5 clearly establishes the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act, the legislation that governs safety. We all know safety is the most important aspect of any mode of transportation, in particular this mode of transportation.

Members opposite have alleged the bill does not adequately address safety. Bill C-20 is intended to deal only with the transfer of Transport Canada's air navigation services to a single not for profit company and with the commercial and economic regulatory arrangements for the continued operation of those services.

Clearly Bill C-20 establishes the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act. Section 5 states that nothing in this act affects the application of the Aeronautics Act. Section 14 states that changes in services and facilities must be subject to the Aeronautics Act, including any regulations made under the act that relate to aviation safety or the safety of the public.

The preamble proposed by the hon. member opposite is bound to overlook some important matter that otherwise would be dealt with in the legislation. In the preamble proposed in Motion No. 1 there is no mention of the safety of private and recreational aviation. We do not want to put forward a preamble that might be void of critical and important aspects that would affect the rest of the bill. We feel that is covered in clause 5, which states the supremacy of the Aeronautics Act.

The Bloc member who proposed the second motion is a new member on the Standing Committee on Transport. He is well versed on the matters of transportation and has been a hard working member of the committee. We can tell the differences between members who bother to care about anything in committee work. This hon. member surely does.

On this motion, an insertion in the preamble, given the three issues dealt with in the motion as well as Motions Nos. 2 and 3 are addressed in the legislation, again we are not convinced of the usefulness or value of this motion.

It is about charging and it is completely unnecessary. The charging principles contained in clause 35 and the associated opportunity to appeal charges to the National Transportation Agency as well as the diversity of interests represented on the Nav Canada board remove the need for a preamble dealing with equality of opportunity and charging for large and small carriers.

Rather than clarify the charging principles, the proposed language in the preamble may well confuse matters. In this case it is the expression "equality of opportunity". I am not sure what that means. It is ambiguous. It is certainly less clear than the charging principles outlined in clause 35 of this legislation.

The final representation by the member, Motion No. 3, requests that Nav Canada recognize Canada is a country in which air services to the north and remote regions are necessary. Clauses 18 to 22 and the charging principles contained in clause 35(1)(g) take care of the concerns of the hon. member about services to remote regions of the country.

Clauses 18 to 22 establish a special process for designated current air navigation services in northern and remote parts of the country. This designation means that if Nav Canada, the new private not for profit company, wishes to terminate or reduce any of these services in a way likely to affect a significant group of users or residents in any material way, it first must give public notice and then must have the concurrence of all the affected provincial or territorial governments and a quorum of users or the approval of the Minister of Transport. Clauses 18 through 22 certainly make the addition of a preamble in this area unnecessary as well.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, to expedite the business of the House I think you would find unanimous consent that all the motions on the Order Paper be deemed to have been read and moved.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is there unanimous consent for the hon. member's proposal?

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Civil Air Navigation Services Commercialization ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Mercier Bloc Blainville—Deux-Montagnes, QC

Mr. Speaker, I did not fully understand what we are doing.